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第 62 期 · 核心追问 Ⅲ·08「理性是解放，还是控制？」
Marxist Philosophy - Bryan Magee & Charles Taylor (1977)
节目发布 2023-03-15章节 · 点击跳转视频
0:00
主持人概述：马克思主义基本草图
3:38
泰勒补充：解放理论与反思性劳动
5:33
分工、异化与资本主义的悖论
10:43
表现性维度：人作为艺术家
12:49
解释理论与解放理论的内在张力
16:51
解放意识形态为何走向极权
18:58
无冲突社会假设及其缺陷
21:55
三层解释框架：个体、社会、宇宙
26:15
暴力、正义战争与科学地位
30:26
马克思主义与宗教的类比
33:35
感召力之源：科学与新纪元的结合
36:48
苏联是扭曲还是必然：列宁与马克思
40:04
修正主义、实践派与依附理论
本期小问 · 档案清单
12:49
理性是解放，还是控制？
16:51
一种解放理论为何会孕育极权？
33:35
有明显缺陷的理论为何有巨大感召力？
26:15
真理是客观，还是共识？
本期讲者
布莱恩·麦基英国哲学家、广播人、工党议员，BBC哲学访谈系列《Men of Ideas》（1978）与《The Great Philosophers》（1987）的主持人，著有《波普尔》《哲学的故事》等。
查尔斯·泰勒加拿大哲学家，英国新左派运动创始人之一，曾任麦吉尔大学与牛津大学教授，著有《黑格尔》（1975）、《自我的根源》（1989）、《世俗时代》（2007），2007年获邓普顿奖。
01主持人概述：马克思主义基本草图
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[Music] foreign
[音乐] 外语
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[Music] practical terms Marxism must be Far and Away the most influential New Philosophy to have appeared in the last 150 years or so and I suppose most of us have a rough idea anyway of what its basic tenets are one could put them I think like this everything that really matters about a society is determined by how it maintains itself in existence because it's what people have to do to keep alive that really decides their relationship to Nature and to each other and therefore ultimately to everything that grows up on those bases so the decisive thing in any society at any given time is what the means of production are when they change people's ways of life have to change and the way individuals relate to each other has to change and thus the organization of classes changes so long as the means of production are in the hands of a section of society rather than the whole of it a deep-seated conflict of class interests is inevitable for this reason the whole of History up to now is really a history of class
[音乐] 就实际影响而言，马克思主义肯定是过去一百五十年左右出现的最有影响力的新哲学了，我想我们大多数人对它的基本主张多少都有个大概的印象，我觉得可以这样表述它：一个社会中真正重要的一切，都取决于它如何维持自身的存在，因为人们为了活下去所必须做的事，才真正决定了他们与自然、与彼此的关系，并因而最终决定了在这些基础上生长出来的一切。所以在任何社会、任何特定时期，起决定作用的是生产资料是什么；当生产资料改变时，人们的生活方式就必须改变，个人之间彼此发生关系的方式也必须改变，于是阶级的组织方式也随之改变。只要生产资料掌握在社会的一部分人而不是全社会手中，深层次的阶级利益冲突就不可避免。因此，迄今为止的全部历史其实就是一部阶级
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struggles this is bound to continue until the means of production are taken over by society as a whole thereby abolishing classes in Marx's sense altogether and held in common ownership and run in the common interest the establishment of this new kind of society I.E communism will inaugurate a whole new era of human history which will be different in kind from the past however since no ruling class can be expected voluntarily to give up its ownership of the means of production with not only the wealth but also the power privilege and Prestige which that confers the forceful overthrow of the existing system is likely to be the only way in which Communism can be established and it's therefore if only for that reason Justified well something like that sketch map of Marxist theory is probably as much as most of us possess and indeed as far as it goes it's accurate but there's so much more to it than that Marxism is a rich and Powerful explanatory system whose intellectual history is colorful
斗争史。这必然会持续下去，直到生产资料被整个社会接管，从而按马克思的意义上彻底消灭阶级，并由社会共同占有、为共同利益而运作。这种新型社会——也就是共产主义——的建立，将开启人类历史一个全新的时代，它在性质上将与过去截然不同。然而，既然不能指望任何统治阶级自愿放弃他们对生产资料的占有，以及随之而来的不仅是财富，还有权力、特权和声望，那么以强力推翻现存制度很可能就是共产主义得以确立的唯一途径，因此，哪怕仅仅出于这个理由，它也是正当的。好了，差不多就是这样一幅马克思主义理论的草图，这大概就是我们多数人所掌握的全部；就它所涉及的范围而言，这也是准确的。但马克思主义远不止于此，它是一个丰富而有力的解释体系，其思想史本身就多姿多彩、饶有趣味，同时又对我们生活的世界有着显而易见的实际
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and interesting in its own right as well as having an obvious practical influence on the world we live in but in this program we're going to consider Marxism as a philosophy to do so we have someone with us who has a lifelong interest in the subject the Canadian Charles Taylor more than 20 years ago as Chuck Taylor a young fellow of all cells College Oxford he was one of the founders of the new Left movement in Britain since then he's been professor of philosophy and political science at McGill University in Canada has run as a candidate several times for the Canadian Federal Parliament and has published a major book on Marx's philosophical progenitor Hegel now after all these years he's back at all cells as professor of social and political theory in the University of Oxford well Professor Taylor I've started this program by giving a very rough but perhaps overbuild outline of Marx's political and economic theory and what we want to do now is to go into the philosophy that throws these things up
影响。不过在本期节目里，我们要把马克思主义当作一种哲学来讨论。为此我们请来了一位终身研究这个课题的嘉宾，加拿大人查尔斯·泰勒。二十多年前，作为牛津万灵学院一位年轻研究员的“查克”·泰勒，是英国新左派运动的创始人之一。此后他担任加拿大麦吉尔大学哲学与政治学教授，还曾多次竞选加拿大联邦议会议员，并出版了一部研究马克思哲学先驱黑格尔的重要著作。如今，多年之后，他重返万灵学院，担任牛津大学社会与政治理论教授。那么泰勒教授，我在节目开头对马克思的政治和经济理论作了一个非常粗略、也许过于简化的概述，现在我们想做的，是深入到把这些东西推到表面的那套哲学中去。那么你
02泰勒补充：解放理论与反思性劳动
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to the surface as it were now where would you like to begin in discussing that well I'd like to begin pick up a point you made about how it's what you said was right but it's much richer I mean you gave a thumbnail sketch very good thumbnail sketch of Marx's an explanatory Theory but there's also another dimension a theory of Liberation which I think accounts for the immense importance and excitement that this theory has has generated for the last century you can start really from the same point it's that human beings are what they are because of the way they make their lives the way they produce the means to live and they produce the means that live as a society as a as a group not individually so in a way we could look at them just as another gregarious animal like ants or bees but what differentiates them from answer bees Marx holds is that human beings have this capacity to reflect on and change the way that they work on nature to produce the means to life in other words labor in the human sense in Marx's
想从哪里开始谈起呢？好的，我想先接着你说的一点讲下去——你说的都对，但内容要丰富得多。我是说，你给了一个提纲挈领的简述，对马克思的解释性理论作了很好的简述，但还有另一个维度，那就是一种解放的理论，我认为正是它造就了这套理论在过去一个世纪里所激发的巨大重要性和热情。其实你可以从同一个起点出发：人之所以成为他们所是的样子，是因为他们创造自己生活的方式，是因为他们生产生活资料的方式，而他们生产的……意思是人是作为社会、作为群体而生活的，不是单独生活的，所以从某种意义上说，我们可以把人仅仅看作另一种群居动物，就像蚂蚁或蜜蜂那样，但马克思认为，人与蚂蚁蜜蜂的区别在于，人类具有反思并改变自己作用于自然、生产生活资料的方式的能力，换句话说，在马克思看来，人类意义上的劳动包含了反思这一观念，这意味着他们能够
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view incorporates this idea of reflection and that means that they can change the way that they interact with nature over time and that is the dimension it's property human that means that over time they can get greater and greater control greater greater capacity to take from nature what they need and to produce the means to human life now this just doesn't just mean that they aren't monotonously stocked like a certain animal species in the same way of doing things all the time but over history they actually get better they actually realize this capacity to control nature to a greater and greater degree in that sense already we can see they become Freer that is with the increase of Technology with their understanding of nature with their capacity to reorganize their their lives human beings become more and more capable of controlling the way in which they interact with nature and is part of the point here that a man in his most primitive State when he's literally emerging from the animal state is
随着时间改变自己与自然互动的方式，而这正是那个维度，是人所特有的属性，这意味着随着时间推移，他们能够获得越来越大的控制力，越来越强的能力，从自然中获取所需，去生产人类生活的资料。这不仅仅意味着他们不像某些动物物种那样单调地固守着同一种做事方式，始终如一；而是在历史进程中他们确实变得更好，他们确实把控制自然的这种能力实现到越来越高的程度。从这个意义上说，我们已经可以看到他们变得更自由了，也就是说，随着技术的进步、随着他们对自然的理解、随着他们重新组织自己生活的能力，人类变得越来越有能力控制自己与自然互动的方式。这里的意思是否部分在于：人在最原始的状态下，当他真的刚从动物状态中脱胎而出时，实际上是被自然奴役的，他受制于一切自然力量，也就是
03分工、异化与资本主义的悖论
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virtually enslaved by Nature he's subject to all the natural forces the realm of Realm of Necessities the way that Marx uses for this very much and that the historical process can be seen as the process of of self-liberation from this enslavement to nature which is conversely if you like the process of the conquest of nature that we are more and more mastering our material environment is that that is the now what makes Marxism a very interesting and Rich theory is that there's another as they were Wing to this that as we as man progresses in history and nature something else happens between human beings because Marx believe that the necessity it was absolute necessity in order to progress that human beings break up the original highly unified Human Society there had to be a division of labor there to be the generation of a surplus which required very rigid discipline and all this meant necessarily inevitably that some men would dominate others in other words they would be class division
必然王国——马克思很常用这个说法——而历史过程可以被看作从这种对自然的奴役中自我解放的过程，反过来说，如果你愿意，也就是征服自然的过程，我们越来越掌握自己的物质环境，是这样吗？那么，使马克思主义成为一种非常有趣而丰富的理论的地方在于，这里还有另一个方面，那就是随着人在历史和自然中不断前进，人与人之间还发生了别的事情，因为马克思相信，这是必然的，是绝对必然的：为了进步，人类必须打破原初那个高度统一的人类社会，必须出现分工，必须产生剩余产品，而这需要非常严格的纪律，所有这一切必然地、不可避免地意味着一些人会支配另一些人，换句话说，会出现阶级分化。而这里的悲剧在于，
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and the tragedy of this if you like is that this great capacity to control our our labor and our interaction with nature and our way of being in the world is something that we never can fully exercise because it's something we only could exercise as a whole Human Society together whereas the the the necessary requirement for progress in the beginning is that we break into class division and the result is that instead of we're controlling freely our way of of interacting with nature and getting the means to life from nature we find that it escapes human control that it follows a set of impersonal laws which no one no individual person no individual group can dictate and of course the the Apex of this at the highest point of human development in history before we recover control is is capitalism and that Marx devoted his major work to Capital and we see in capital important one way of putting a pencil sketch of capital is that it's an it's a picture of a society of an organization of society which is
我们控制自己的劳动、控制我们与自然的互动、控制我们在世界中存在方式的这种巨大能力，却是我们永远无法充分行使的，因为这种能力只有作为一个整体的人类社会共同才能行使，而最初进步的必要条件恰恰是我们分裂为阶级。结果就是，我们非但没有自由地控制自己与自然互动、从自然中获取生活资料的方式，反而发现这一切逃脱了人的控制，它遵循着一套非人格的规律，没有任何人、任何个体、任何单个群体能够左右它。当然，在我们重新夺回控制之前，人类历史发展的最高点、这一切的顶峰就是资本主义，马克思把他的主要著作《资本论》献给了它。我们在《资本论》中看到，一种给《资本论》勾勒素描的方式是：它描绘了一个社会、一种社会组织形式，
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governed by inexorable laws out of human control in control of no individual in which the laws of capital accumulation drive on and on and on to the destruction immense suffering of human beings which no one can can control so the Paradox is is what Marx use the word alienation for that this immense potential human beings develop to write their own ticket as it were as as animals in nature which no other animal has is it we're arrenched from their hands by their own internal divisions now comes the final combination in which by a revolution Human Society can recover control something that can only happen at the Apex of history when the Surplus has been generated and the means have been as they were gathered why does I mean why is this so to speak almost magical Act of Revolution going to make everything right that's been wrong throughout history what how does the theory explain the theory really is that there is a bent in human nature if you'd like to put it this way towards ultimately free and therefore Collective
它被不可抗拒的规律所支配，脱离了人的控制，不受任何个人控制，在其中资本积累的规律不断地、不断地推进下去，造成毁灭和人类的巨大苦难，而没有人能够控制。所以这个悖论就是马克思用“异化”这个词所指的：人类发展出的这种巨大潜能——所谓自己书写自己的命运，这是自然界中其他任何动物都没有的——却被他们自身内部的分裂从手中夺走了。现在到了最后的组合，通过一场革命，人类社会可以重新夺回控制，而这只有在历史的顶点、当剩余产品已经产生、手段已经积聚起来时才可能发生。为什么呢？我是说，为什么这种可以说近乎神奇的革命行动就能把历史上一切错的东西都纠正过来？这个理论是怎么解释的？这个理论其实是说，如果你愿意这么表述的话，人性中有一种倾向，趋向于最终自由的、因而也是集体的、
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control together over their Destiny and this this bent you can see is being frustrated by the fact that in previous history it just wasn't possible to take the first steps without paying the terrible cost of class divided Society I mean in very poor Indigent societies under primitive communism it was necessary to break into dominators and dominated Masters and servants in order to make the next step I see and that's when it no longer is necessary the Marxist theory is that a class will arise which is willing to take that step towards a revolution which will for the first time not simply produce another dominant class but do away with domination altogether yeah if I remember rightly and absolutely in a way the key to this whole process though in Marx's view is the division of labor isn't it because I believe he says that that uh in order for human societies to develop beyond the very primitive stage you have to have specialization but once you have specialization the individual is no longer producing everything that is
共同的对自身命运的控制。而你可以看到，这种倾向一直受挫，因为在以往的历史中，不付出阶级分化社会那种可怕的代价，就根本无法迈出最初的步伐。我是说，在非常贫困匮乏的社会里，在原始共产主义之下，必须分裂为支配者与被支配者、主人与仆人，才能迈出下一步。我明白了。而当这不再是必要的时候，马克思主义理论认为，会出现一个阶级，愿意迈出那一步，走向一场革命，这场革命第一次不再只是产生另一个统治阶级，而是彻底废除支配本身。是的，如果我没记错的话——完全正确。不过在马克思看来，整个这一过程的关键其实在于分工，对吧？因为我记得他说过，人类社会要想发展到超越极其原始的阶段，就必须有专业化分工；可是一旦有了专业化，个人就不再生产他维持自身生活
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responsible for his own maintenance and he becomes dependent on others he he gets hived off into particular groupings with others but he also becomes so to speak an instrument of production he is somebody who is now being used for the purposes of others as well as himself to produce the means of livelihood for society as a whole and this starts the process that you just mentioned of alienation he becomes someone who is as it were cut off or partially cut off from the means that sustain him yes we are all at that point fragments of the social process and none of us can really understand or control it totally and it follows from that of course that when we have a revolution in which we recuperate this control that once again the division of labor has overcome it's very important theme in Marx that the division at least between workers by hand and workers by brain will be overcome but now I think the really exciting element in this which has not always been brought out very clearly but I think it's always there but I call The
所需要的一切东西，他变得依赖他人，他被划分到与他人组成的特定群体中，而他同时也可以说变成了一种生产工具，他现在成了被人使用的人，既为他人也为自己的目的，去为整个社会生产生活资料。于是就开始了你刚才提到的异化过程，他变成了一个可以说被切断、或部分被切断的人，与维持他生存的手段相隔离。是的，在那一点上我们都成了社会过程的碎片，我们谁也无法真正完全理解或控制它。当然由此也就得出：当我们进行一场革命、重新夺回这种控制时，分工同时也被克服了。在马克思那里有一个非常重要的主题：至少体力劳动者与脑力劳动者之间的分工将被克服。不过我认为，这里面真正令人振奋的成分并不总是被清楚地讲出来，但我认为它一直都在，我称之为“解放理论”，它其实是说：人类在历史中所要实现的东西
04表现性维度：人作为艺术家
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Liberation theory is really this that what human beings are about in history comes to be something very surprising it the motivation for all these earlier stages of History moving from one system to another is of course just acquiring the means to life I mean the very dire necessity of keeping alive but Marx had the view that it was part like a human fulfillment to exercise this capacity to control their lives for its own sake is it where that there was a expressive Dimension not simply an instrumental Dimension to this it becomes a form of self-realization of realizations yes and it's this dimension of self-realization which is utterly frustrated by class Society in other words what marks you see Marx constantly saying his works both early and late is that in class Society capitalism for instance we have a society which at best simply produces in order to keep men alive it's just the bear means production simply a means to keep alive whereas man is a laboring animal ought to be capable of expressing himself in
竟然是某种非常出人意料的东西。历史上早先各个阶段，从一种制度过渡到另一种制度，其动机当然只是为了获取生活资料，也就是活下去这一极其迫切的必需。但马克思认为，行使这种控制自己生活的能力本身，就是人的自我实现的一部分，也就是说，这里面有一个表现性的维度，而不只是工具性的维度。它成了一种自我实现的形式。是的，正是这种自我实现的维度，在阶级社会中被彻底扼杀了。换句话说，你会看到马克思在他早期和晚期的著作中不断地说：在阶级社会里，比如资本主义，我们拥有的社会充其量只是为了让人活着而进行生产，它只是赤裸裸的生产手段，只是维持生存的手段，而人作为劳动的动物，本应能够在自己的劳动中把自己作为人表现出来。这几乎就是
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his labor as a human being is almost the vision of man as a collective man social man is kind of artist expressing himself which is where what awaits human beings once they can overcome this alienation and I suppose the vision of the society to be achieved communism is a vision of a society without internal divisions without classes without master and man and without alienation exactly it's an overcoming of alienation and which means that all the capacity that human beings have to control their lives are put to the service of their expressive uh drive and aspirations that's I think in a nutshell what overcoming alienation means no uh it's very clear that this philosophy has had an enormous influence on the modern world and on all of this and it's also pretty clear to me anyway that it contains very important elements of Truth what would you say uh uh so to speak the the good things about the philosophy or the things that we all have learned from or at least ought to have learned from even if we haven't
把人看作集体的人、社会的人，看作一种表现自我的艺术家的图景，而这正是人类一旦能够克服这种异化之后所等待着他们的东西。我想，所要实现的那个社会即共产主义的图景，就是一个没有内部分裂、没有阶级、没有主人和仆从、没有异化的社会的图景。正是如此，那是对异化的克服，这意味着人类所拥有的一切控制自己生活的能力，都被用来服务于他们的表现性的冲动和抱负。我想，简而言之这就是克服异化的含义。很清楚，这套哲学对现代世界产生了巨大的影响，而且至少在我看来也很清楚，它包含着非常重要的真理成分。你会怎么说——可以说这套哲学的可取之处，或者我们所有人都从中学到的、至少应该从中学到的东西，即便我们并没有学到？我会说，在我们讨论过的两个方面中，即扩展理论（解释理论）和
05解释理论与解放理论的内在张力
12:49
well I would say of the two sides that we've looked at the expansion Theory and then the Richer Liberation Theory the expanded theory in a way we're all in some degree Marxist now in the sense that it gave us a reading of history in terms of of the precisely the way in which human beings make the means to life and it gave us insights into history which no one can go back on however much there may be arguments about how far to take it when you get to the Liberation Theory it's a much more checkered and controversial question it is it's undoubtedly given as I think one of the one of the Richer and more interesting insights into the development of modern man the the immense importance that freedom has for people in modern civilization the way that uh people Pine after it and struggle for it and so on at the same time it's been the source of one of the biggest problems within Marxism itself because these two sides of the theory explanatory Theory and The Liberation Theory don't always fit too
更为丰富的解放理论中，就前者而言，我们现在在某种程度上都是马克思主义者了，因为它给了我们一种解读历史的方式，恰恰是从人类如何生产生活资料的角度出发的，它给了我们对历史的洞见，这是任何人都无法退回去否认的，不管在把它推进到多远的问题上有多少争论。而当你谈到解放理论时，那就是一个复杂得多、也更有争议的问题了。确实如此。毫无疑问，我认为它提供了对现代人发展最丰富、最有趣的洞见之一：自由对现代文明中的人们所具有的巨大重要性，人们如何渴慕它、为它奋斗等等。但与此同时，它也成了马克思主义内部最大问题之一的根源，因为这个理论的这两个方面——解释理论和解放理论——并不总能很好地契合。你能举例说明
13:51
well together I mean can can you show how they I think we can see that together by example I mean if you want to look at Marxism simply as you know almost newtonians and scientific theory explaining human history doing for development history what Newton did for the planets then you get a view of inexorable law which governs human beings at any period of time isn't this Newton's Laws of the planets govern the planet's motions in a period of time then what disappears is something in The Liberation theory of Marxism which is something of this kind that as we make the revolution from capitalism to Communism we recover control over certain facets of Our Lives which previously under capitalism or as it were under the control of inexorable law the idea that some at one point in history some things are controlled by laws which then are recuperated if you like for for freedom this is an idea that doesn't fit neatly into a model of Newtonian science in other words I mean what Mark what Marx is suggesting is is
它们如何……？我想我们可以通过例子来看清这一点。我是说，如果你只把马克思主义看作一种几乎是牛顿式的科学理论，用来解释人类历史，为历史发展做牛顿为行星所做的事，那么你得到的就是一种不可抗拒的规律观，它在任何时期都支配着人类，是不是？就像牛顿的定律支配行星在一段时间内的运动一样。那么消失掉的就是马克思主义解放理论中的某种东西，大致是这样的：当我们进行从资本主义到共产主义的革命时，我们重新夺回了对生活某些方面的控制，而这些方面此前在资本主义下是处在不可抗拒的规律控制之下的。也就是说，在历史的某一时刻，某些事物受规律支配，而后又被重新收回、如果你愿意说，收归自由。这个观念并不能整齐地纳入牛顿式科学的模型。换句话说，我是说马克思所暗示的是：在历史上直到某一点为止，
14:49
that up to a certain point in history namely the Communist Revolution all historical events are covered by laws which have the character of scientific laws and suddenly there's going to be some kind of break so that man will after that become free and therefore not government except the Liberation Theory it wouldn't be that that uh crude I mean it would be of this kind really that as the different societies succeed each other in history I mean feudalism capitalism and so on you get very different kinds of laws governing people and things that are under control and control at one period cease to be at other periods and vice versa and it's only with the arrival of Communism that we get um another such change but at this point of change which has an unprecedented degree incorporates an impressive unprecedented degree of control but the idea would be that there would be quite a great qualitative differences between the kind of laws applying under ancient Society feudal society and communist Society against this however
也就是共产主义革命之前，一切历史事件都受具有科学规律性质的规律支配，然后突然会发生某种断裂，使人从此变得自由，因而不再受支配。只不过解放理论不会那么粗糙。我是说，它其实是这样的：随着不同社会在历史中相继更替——比如封建主义、资本主义等等——你会得到支配人的、非常不同种类的规律，而在某一时期处于控制之下的事物，到另一时期就不再受控，反之亦然。而只有随着共产主义的到来，我们才迎来另一次这样的变化，只不过这一变化的时刻具有前所未有的程度，包含了一种令人瞩目的、前所未有的控制程度。但这里的观念是：古代社会、封建社会和共产主义社会下适用的规律之间，会有相当大的质的差别。然而与此相对的，
15:46
you have the kind of the way that Marxism came to be considered quite understandably in late Victorian period the period of Darwin the period of you might say scientism is a kind of ideology when it's seen as an inexorable set of of of laws now within Marxism itself these two sides have gone on struggling you know as a political movement it can't abandon either one because it's I think it's political punch precisely depends on holding on to both of them I mean it has to hold on to the Liberation Theory because that is the if you like the whole Messianic future that it can open to man and it has to hold on to the claim to being a science because that stamps it is something quintessentially modern just overcome Superstition and which can have a really solid foundation but any that's level of politics any Marxist theoretician has been in one way or another deeply embarrassed with this and they've taken difference different roads there is a very popular school today which has decided to jettison The Liberation Theory almost
是马克思主义后来被理解的那种方式——在维多利亚后期，在达尔文的时代，在可以说是科学主义作为一种意识形态的时代，这种理解是相当可以理解的——即把它看作一套不可抗拒的规律。而在马克思主义内部，这两个方面一直在相互角力。你知道，作为一场政治运动，它哪一个都不能放弃，因为我认为它的政治力量恰恰取决于同时抓住这两者。它必须抓住解放理论，因为那是——如果你愿意说——它能向人类敞开的整个弥赛亚式的未来；它也必须抓住自己是一门科学的主张，因为那给它盖上了本质上现代的印记，标明它已经克服了迷信，并且能够有一个真正坚实的基础。但在政治层面之外，任何马克思主义理论家都在某种程度上为此深感尴尬，他们走了不同的路子。今天有一个很流行的学派，决定几乎完全抛弃解放理论。我想，许多听我们这番讨论的人会对你强调
06解放意识形态为何走向极权
16:51
all together I think many people listening to this discussion between us will be surprised at your emphasis on half of Marxism being a theory of Liberation because in many people's minds I think Marxism is bound to be associated with a form of totalitarianism there are very very few people left anywhere in the world now I think who actually regards say the Soviet Union as in any serious sense a free country the communist countries are dictatorships of one sort or another and how them people will be asking themselves how can a theory of Liberation be the ideology of this kind of society yes I think it's a very cruel Paradox but I think it's one that explains a great deal of it explains just why the Soviet Union is such a totalitarian country it is if it were content merely to be an autocracy as its predecessor regime its Artisan was it wouldn't need to interfere with control shape people's lives as much as it is it tries to do but it's because it's a regime which is based on ideology of Liberation it has
马克思主义有一半是解放理论感到意外，因为在很多人心目中，我想马克思主义必然会与某种形式的极权主义联系在一起。现在全世界恐怕已经极少有人还会真的认为，比如说苏联在任何严肃意义上是一个自由国家；共产主义国家都是这样那样的独裁政权。人们会问自己：一种解放理论怎么会成为这类社会的意识形态？是的，我认为这是一个非常残酷的悖论，但我认为它解释了很多东西，它恰恰解释了为什么苏联是这样一个极权国家。如果它满足于仅仅做一个专制政体——就像它的前身沙皇政权那样——它就不需要像现在这样去干预、控制、塑造人们的生活。但正因为它是一个建立在解放意识形态之上的政权，它就必须
17:59
to be the case that everybody not only obeys but likes it but believes in it and any evidence serious evidence that people don't they find it spiritually empty has to be crushed I mean people have to be at the limit even put in insane asiders partly because one has to believe that such people must be insane to see a system of this kind as spiritually empty because it has these tremendous claims again you mentioning earlier that The Liberation Theory and Marxism in a way looks on man as an artist and therefore four Marxist movements again what artists say hold believe Express becomes supremely important according to the theory they ought to be in that Society expressing and celebrating what that Society is about and when they turn out not to be it's something absolutely intolerable and therefore they have to be suppressed this brings us to a consideration I think of what the main shortcomings in the theory are I don't I don't want to get hived off into a discussion of the Soviet Union which
做到人人不仅服从，而且喜欢它、相信它。任何认真的证据表明人们并不相信、觉得它在精神上是空洞的，都必须被压制。我是说，人们甚至可能被送进精神病院，部分原因在于人们必须相信：只有疯子才会把这样一种制度看作精神上空洞的，因为它有着如此宏大的主张。还有你先前提到的，解放理论和马克思主义在某种意义上把人看作艺术家，因此对马克思主义运动来说，艺术家所说的、所持的、所信的、所表达的东西就变得至高无上地重要。按照这个理论，他们在那个社会里本应表达和颂扬这个社会的宗旨，而当他们事实上不这么做时，那就是绝对不可容忍的，因此必须被压制。我想这就把我们带到了对这个理论主要缺陷的思考上。我不想岔到对苏联的讨论上去，那当然会
07无冲突社会假设及其缺陷
18:58
would be very fascinating I wanted to try and keep to talking about Marxist philosophy but it does seem to me that one of the mistakes in the theory is that the theory posits with the achievement of communism a society within which there are no conflicts now it seems to me that this is even theoretically unattainable um for example wherever you get two people together you are bound to have conflicting interests and conflicting opinions and so on and almost the central problem of politics could be described as being how do you solve such conflicts if not by Brute Force if not by the law of the Jungle I mean in one sense this is what politics is primarily about and I think we now realize more than people did in the 19th century that the the physical resources of the world the material resources of the world are cruelly finite and they're always going to be disputes about how they should be used in any kind of society so in any kind of society you're going to get conflicts and Marxism doesn't
非常引人入胜，但我想尽量围绕马克思主义哲学来谈。不过在我看来，这个理论的错误之一是，它假定随着共产主义的实现，会有一个不存在冲突的社会。而在我看来，这甚至在理论上都是无法达成的。比如说，只要有两个人在一起，就必然会有……利益冲突、意见分歧等等，几乎可以说政治的核心问题就是：你如何解决这样的冲突——如果不靠暴力，不靠丛林法则的话。我是说，从某种意义上讲，这正是政治主要关心的事情。而且我认为，我们现在比19世纪的人更清楚地认识到，这个世界的物质资源——世界的物质资源是残酷地有限的，人们总会就它们应该如何被使用而产生争执。在任何一种社会里都是如此，所以任何一种社会都会产生冲突，而马克思主义并没有给我们提供任何解决这些冲突的办法，
19:55
give us any way of resolving these because it denies that in its form of society there are going to be any conflicts at all yes and I think can I just add a point here Chuck I don't want to go on talking too long at this point but I want just to add the point that I think that this is connected with the reason why Marxism is so to speak bad about freedom because it doesn't acknowledge the possibility of conflict in its kind of society it has no way of coping with a situation when the individual is at odds with Society or when minorities are at odds with majorities because it says that can't happen would you agree that there is yes I think that you're being a bit unfair in the sense that a Marxist would reply here that there is do foresee certain kinds of conflict but basically the basic point that they foresee that the really deep conflicts that which make people take up cudgels against each other are grounded in economic exploitation and will disappear and I agree with you but I do agree with your basic point that emerges
因为它否认在它那种形式的社会里还会存在任何冲突。是的。我想我能不能在这里补充一点，查克，我不想在这个问题上讲得太久，但我只想补充一点，我认为这与马克思主义在自由问题上（可以说）表现糟糕的原因有关，因为它不承认它那种社会里存在冲突的可能性，所以当个人与社会发生对立，或者少数派与多数派发生对立时，它就无从应对，因为它说这种情况不可能发生。你是否同意确实存在……是的，我觉得你这么说有点不公平，因为一个马克思主义者会回应说，他们确实预见到某些种类的冲突，但基本的一点是，他们预见到那些真正深层的、使人们相互抄起棍棒的冲突，根源在于经济剥削，并且将会消失。不过我同意你的看法，我确实同意你提出的基本要点，也就是说他们无力应对，他们
20:55
in that that their powerless to cope with they have no resources that were intellectually otherwise to cope with with conflict and no model of how to operate a society in which conflict could arise and there's a very deep feeling that if you begin to allow for that you're going beyond the bounds of Marxism I think that's certainly true what do you think are other important shortcomings of the theory as a theory well in a way something we should have raised in connection with the Soviet Union is the opposite of of the Crimson the Soviet Union it's that it all happened in a country like the Soviet Union and not in a western Advanced country because the theory of Marx was definitely to the effect that communism would come about in the most advanced industrial societies I mean in a way just as you can say what's happening in the Soviet Union there's no test of Marxism so on the other hand you have to say that the biggest intellectual question put to Marxism is why hasn't it happened in Britain in Germany
在智识上或其他方面都没有资源去应对冲突，也没有任何模型来说明如何运作一个可能出现冲突的社会。而且有一种很深的感觉：一旦你开始为此留出余地，你就超出了马克思主义的边界。我想这肯定是对的。你认为这一理论作为一种理论还有哪些重要的缺陷？嗯，某种意义上，有件事我们本该在谈苏联时提出来，那正好和苏联的情况相反——就是说，这一切竟然发生在苏联那样的国家，而不是发生在西方发达国家。因为马克思的理论明确主张，共产主义将会在最发达的工业社会中出现。我是说，某种程度上，正如你可以说苏联发生的事情并不构成对马克思主义的检验，那么另一方面你也必须承认，摆在马克思主义面前最大的思想难题就是：为什么它没有在英国、在德国发生。我认为这既是一个重大的
08三层解释框架：个体、社会、宇宙
21:55
and I think that this is both a major one of the major shortcomings of the theory and one of the major sources one of the major areas of continuing discussion by Marxist would you would you agree with me also that Marxism is very limited in the following sense that that with said speak the great philosophies of the world or the major ideologies or major religions they they provide explanations of uh of the world on one can put it very crudely by by saying it this way they provide explanations on three different levels the individual level the human individual with his unique life and death and Consciousness and knowledge and soul if he has one and moral sense and so on and a whole cluster of important philosophical problems the mind-body problem the problem of the self and sound relating to the individual then there is uh the social level of political social problems historical problems and so on and then there's the level of problems concerning the natural world the cosmos the material world with
理论缺陷，也是马克思主义者持续讨论的主要源头之一、主要领域之一。你是否也同意我的看法：马克思主义在下面这个意义上非常有限——可以说，世界上那些伟大的哲学，或者主要的意识形态、主要的宗教，它们都对世界提供了解释。可以很粗略地这样讲：它们在三个不同的层面上提供解释。第一是个体层面，人作为个体，有他独特的生与死、意识、知识、灵魂（如果他有的话）、道德感等等，还有一大堆重要的哲学问题：身心问题、自我的问题等等与个体相关的问题。然后是社会层面，政治的、社会的问题，历史问题等等。再然后是关于自然世界的问题层面：宇宙、物质世界，涉及时间和空间的本质，以及人类生活置身其中的整个
23:02
fundamental questions arising about the nature of time and space and the whole material structure within which human life finds itself now it seems to me that that uh the great theories the great philosophies are richly explanatory on all three of these levels whereas Marxism isn't Marxism almost totally ignores two of them it ignores the level of the natural world and has nothing to say about the cosmos and really has almost nothing to say about the individual it's a it's a theory that functions entirely on that intermediate level of social existence I much I agree with you on that having nothing to say about the cosmos I'm afraid that in some cases they have too much to say about the cosmos they're a development out of angles which you now have in the Soviet Union of the dialectics of nature which I think is in a lot of nonsense philosophically really it would be better if Marxism had nothing to say about the natural Cosmos what modern ideology or or religion does I think that a much more powerful
物质结构等根本问题。在我看来，那些伟大的理论、伟大的哲学在这三个层面上都有丰富的解释力，而马克思主义却不是这样。马克思主义几乎完全忽略了其中两个层面：它忽略了自然世界这个层面，对宇宙无话可说；而且实际上对个体也几乎无话可说。它是一种完全运作在社会存在这个中间层面上的理论。这一点我很同意你——关于对宇宙无话可说这一点，我倒担心在某些情况下他们对宇宙说得太多了。从恩格斯那里发展出来的那一套，就是你现在在苏联能看到的所谓“自然辩证法”，我认为从哲学上讲那大多是胡说。说真的，如果马克思主义对自然宇宙什么都不说，反而更好——哪个现代意识形态或宗教又对此有什么说法呢？我认为你提出的一个更有力的批评应该是：它对
24:07
criticism of yours would be that it had nothing to say about the personal level and I wonder how if that's entirely true it's it's true up to now the historical record that not much has been said by marxists I don't know how much that is some kind of historical accident that Marxism has been taken out very powerfully by important political movements which have had other things to think about then indeed I wanted to suppress certain questions about the individual when you see the rich resources of Marxism as a theory of Liberation you see the kind of theory of art that could emerge from that it's possible to conceive of a another development of our culture you can imagine it happening in which that side of Marxism could really be explored could be given the kind of exploration and development that Marxist economics has been given our Marx's theory of development has been given we have just a few signs of it really in Marxist aestheticians Marx's theorist of of Art and I there could be an ultimate
个人层面无话可说。不过我怀疑这是否完全属实。就目前的历史记录而言，这是真的：马克思主义者在这方面说得不多。但我不知道这在多大程度上是某种历史的偶然——马克思主义被一些重要的政治运动极其有力地接管了，而这些运动有别的事情要操心，而且确实想要压制某些关于个体的问题。当你看到马克思主义作为一种解放理论所具有的丰富资源，当你看到从中可能生长出来的那种艺术理论，就完全可以设想我们的文化会有另一种发展路径。你可以想象这样一种情形：马克思主义的那一面被真正探索，得到像马克思主义经济学、马克思的发展理论所得到的那种探索和发展。我们现在其实只在马克思主义美学家、马克思主义艺术理论家那里看到一些苗头。这里可能会引出一个终极问题：
25:08
question arising there whether the individual as we've understood it in the past the lonely individual who very often faces the most dramatic and important aspects of his life alone whether Marxism could ever properly capture this may indeed be a question but it's a question we don't know the answer to a priori because this is a very underdeveloped side of Marxism it would be would be interesting and very exciting if there were such a turn in our cultural life that our Marxist thinkers instead of being very exclusively focused on theories of why the revolution didn't take place or why it will take place tomorrow or theories of the state and so on in which sometimes diminishing returns seem to be coming in and there could be a focus on greater development of Marx's theory of Art theory of human aesthetic experience moral experience it could be something there have been certain Beginnings which have never been really taken up which could be something quite interesting do you regard the acceptance or indeed advocacy of
我们过去所理解的那种个体——那个孤独的个体，常常独自面对他生命中最富戏剧性、最重要的那些方面——马克思主义能否恰当地把握这一点，这确实可能是个问题，但这个问题的答案我们并不能先验地知道，因为这是马克思主义中一个非常不发达的方面。如果我们的文化生活出现这样一种转向，那会很有意思、很令人兴奋：我们的马克思主义思想家不再几乎只专注于关于革命为什么没有发生、或者为什么明天就会发生的理论，或者国家理论等等——在这些方面有时似乎已出现边际收益递减——而是可以转而更多地发展马克思关于艺术的理论、关于人类审美经验、道德经验的理论。已经有过某些开端，只是从来没有真正被接续下去，这可能会相当有意思。你是否认为对暴力的接受、乃至鼓吹，是这套
09暴力、正义战争与科学地位
26:15
violence as being a strike against the philosophy or the theory well you can't say that an advocacy of violence is such because there's very few theories except outright pacifist ones I mean a great theoration like lock of the of liberalism Advocates revolution in certain circumstances but I do think I think there is a point in what you're saying there that the very belief that one can achieve a kind of conflictless society beyond the revolution gives you a kind of license to destroy and undercut what exists now and to do so even violently as long as you think that what's going to come out of it is going to be a conflictless realm of of Harmony and it's not about it that the certainty with which marxists uh political figures and people believe in this the um very often the facilities which they accept the idea that one should destroy system violence or violently upset it I think is a is a feature of you might say they're Messianic hope because and also in individuals and in groups it only too easily becomes an assumption
哲学或理论的一个污点？嗯，你不能仅凭鼓吹暴力就这么说，因为除了彻底的和平主义理论之外，很少有理论不是如此。我是说，像洛克那样伟大的自由主义理论家，也在某些情况下主张革命。但我确实认为你说的有一点道理：正是那种相信在革命之后可以实现某种无冲突社会的信念，给了你一种许可，去摧毁、去瓦解现存的一切，甚至以暴力的方式去做——只要你认为由此产生的将是一个无冲突的和谐王国。而且不仅如此，马克思主义者、政治人物和民众相信这一点时那种确定性，以及他们常常如此轻易地接受“应当用暴力摧毁现有制度、或用暴力颠覆它”这种想法，我认为这可以说是他们那种弥赛亚式希望的一个特征。而且在个人和群体那里，这也太容易变成一种理所当然的假定：
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that it's all right for them to use violence in pursuit of whatever their aims are doesn't it but that does of course fall off the theory because if the theory is right they are on the right side there's also yes it's perpetual Marxism is a Perpetual theory of the just War applied to politics in in his slide to history or yes yes any theory is just War says that we're right and they're wrong I mean that's but that's not peculiar too but now what exactly is the status of this Theory I mean it claims to be scientific and it marks his own writings this is reiterated over and over again that he is putting forward a scientific View and I suppose what he really meant was that whereas other socialists have been uh either seeing lovely visions of an ideal Society or issuing uh moral demands he wasn't doing that what he was doing or trying to do was to look at the actual sociological processes at work in society and seeing where they would lead him uh he was claiming all the time that he was taking a scientific approach but one
为了实现他们的目标，他们使用暴力是没问题的，不是吗？不过这当然是从理论中推出来的，因为如果这个理论是对的，那他们就站在正确的一边。还有一点——是的，马克思主义是一种永恒的正义战争理论，被应用到政治上、应用到历史上。是的，是的，任何正义战争理论都是说我们对、他们错。我是说，那也不是它独有的。那么现在，这个理论的地位究竟是什么？我是说，它宣称自己是科学的，在马克思本人的著作里，这一点被反复强调：他提出的是一种科学的观点。我想他真正的意思是，其他社会主义者要么是在描绘理想社会的美好愿景，要么是在提出道德诉求，而他不是在做这个。他所做的、或试图做的，是考察社会中实际起作用的社会学过程，看看这些过程会把他引向何处。他一直宣称自己采取的是科学的方法。但事实上，
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is struck in fact by by the amount of profits prophecies Theory isn't one by all the claims and discussions about the future which actually don't look very scientific when you examine them closely well actually he marks us quite careful about claims in the future in any detail he hedged a lot about the future nature of commune society and what would happen I mean the big claim is the breakdown of capitalism the big claim of the future which is yet to be Redeemed by by the facts yeah but I the word the word in German meaning science as you know distance shaft has a much broader sense and people talk very happily in German about historical science and as well as about the science of physics activities but I think it's undoubtedly true that anyways Marx developed he came to see the firmness and rigorousness of his science of capitals being absolutely on all fours with that of of physics and do you think that just can't be sustainable but I don't think it can be sustained in principle for any Theory
人们会被其中大量的预言所触动。这不是一种预言理论吗——所有那些关于未来的断言和讨论，如果你仔细审视，其实看起来并不怎么科学。嗯，其实马克思在对未来做具体断言时相当谨慎，他在这方面留了很多余地，比如关于未来共产主义社会的性质、会发生什么。我是说，那个重大的断言是资本主义的崩溃，那是关于未来的重大断言，而它至今仍有待事实来兑现。是的。不过，你知道，德语里表示“科学”的那个词——Wissenschaft——含义要宽泛得多，德国人可以很自然地谈论“历史科学”，也谈论物理学这样的科学。但我认为毫无疑问，随着马克思思想的发展，他确实开始认为自己关于资本的科学，其确定性和严格性完全可以和物理学相提并论。而你认为这是站不住脚的？我认为原则上就站不住脚：任何一种声称要处理人类、他们的动机、他们的历史、他们的
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which purports deal with human beings their motivation their history their society how they develop that kind of rigor that kind of exactitude that kind of verification just can't be of course I think why not to add In fairness to Marx that the notion of of what constitutes science has changed radically in the hundred years since he wrote that that all well-informed men in the middle of the 19th century thought that scientific knowledge was especially secure and certain and infallible they were an encourageable kind of knowledge whereas now that view has been virtually universally abandoned and we've realized that science is valuable science is currently and uh and therefore I mean we Marx himself would take a different view now if he were writing it because he would have different models yes yes yes yes and that's too wouldn't fit very well with as you say the Messianic side it really was a 19th century belief you know Darwinism cleaned up this area and he had all that all clear and and
社会以及他们如何发展的理论，都不可能具有那种严格性、那种精确性、那种可验证性。当然，为公平起见，我想补充一点：在马克思写作之后的这一百年里，人们对“什么算是科学”的观念已经发生了根本变化。在19世纪中叶，所有见多识广的人都认为科学知识是特别可靠、确定、不会出错的，是一种无可指摘的知识；而如今这种观点已经几乎被普遍抛弃，我们已经认识到科学是可错的、是暂时性的。因此我是说，如果马克思今天写作，他自己也会持不同的看法，因为他会有不同的模型。是的，是的，是的，是的。而那样一来，也就像你说的，跟那种弥赛亚式的一面就不太合得来了。那确实是一种19世纪的信念：你知道，达尔文主义把这块地方搞清楚了，一切都明明白白；物理学把那块地方搞清楚了；而现在
10马克思主义与宗教的类比
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physics had cleaned up this area and now Marx was we're cleaning up finally the area of Human Social history one parallel that's been drawn by a lot of other people is the is is between Marxism and the religion and I'd like to invite your comments on this uh what the people who make the parallel point out is that it has uh says sacred books and it has its profits and its sects and its schisms and its persecutions and its Heretics and and the whole kind of setup the the whole way in which Marxism and communism has developed is strikingly like a religion even the spread is like a religion I mean I do think that uh an absolutely astounding fact about Marx is that uh 100 years ago he was an almost unknown uh Refugee intellectual living in this country on the charity of friends and living in lodgings and working all day in the British museum reading room studying and writing and so on and within less than 70 years of his death the death of this intellectual Scribbler uh within less than 70 years
马克思要把人类社会历史这一块最终搞清楚。很多人做过的一个类比是马克思主义与宗教之间的类比，我想请你谈谈看法。做这个类比的人指出的是，它有自己的圣典，有自己的先知、宗派、分裂、迫害，还有自己的异端等等一整套东西。马克思主义和共产主义发展的整个方式，惊人地像一种宗教，连传播方式也像宗教。我确实认为，关于马克思有一个绝对令人震惊的事实：一百年前，他还是一个几乎默默无闻的流亡知识分子，靠朋友的接济生活在这个国家，住在出租屋里，整天泡在大英博物馆的阅览室里读书写作。而在他去世后不到七十年——这位“摇笔杆子的知识分子”去世后不到七十年——
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of his death a third of the human race is living under governments under region teams that actually call themselves by his name that call themselves marxists I mean the whole of China the whole of Russia in its 19th century Empire the whole of Eastern Europe This is an astounding thing and the only similarity to it it seems to be in the whole of history is the spread of Islam and the spread of Christianity now what how would you comment on those parallels with a religion well I think undoubtedly Orthodox established Marxism in Soviet Union or China resembles in the respects you've mentioned religious movements in the past imposed Orthodoxy and indeed the the the worst dimension of an imposed Orthodoxy when you go back to Marx himself Marx is writing himself what is the religious element there I think this something there which is the kernel to all that along with the scientific Outlook and that is that Marxism is so obviously related to the Messianic tradition of the milanist tradition of European uh movements
人类的三分之一就生活在以他的名字自称的政府、政权之下，这些政权自称是马克思主义者。我是说，整个中国、整个俄国及其19世纪的帝国版图、整个东欧。这是件惊人的事情，而整个历史上唯一能与之相比的，似乎就是伊斯兰教的传播和基督教的传播。那么你怎么评价这些与宗教的类比呢？嗯，我认为毫无疑问，苏联或中国那种正统的、建制化的马克思主义，在你提到的这些方面确实类似于历史上的宗教运动——强加的正统，而且是强加正统最糟糕的那一面。但如果回到马克思本人，回到马克思自己的写作，那里的宗教性因素是什么？我认为那里确实有某种东西，是这一切的内核，与科学的外观并存，那就是：马克思主义显然与欧洲的弥赛亚传统、千禧年主义传统有关——中世纪那些运动，预见到新
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movements in the Middle Ages for seeing the coming of the the New Order of the new world that broke out in the time of the Reformation indeed were there in a way in the extreme sex of the French Revolution who had the same idea of a new beginning they started you know in 1791 I think it was a new calendar law and this is a very important feature via Hegel via the works of Hegel which fed into Marxism particularly the idea that there will be a period of Maximum Strife maximum suffering a great final struggle just preceding the introduction of a new age of Harmony peace fulfillment now this is not necessarily incompatible with science I mean if you did try out to be the case that Marx's view of human history was right then it would turn out that Messianic movements had been unculinity prescient just as certain myths as were our forerunners of atomic theories and so on but it's there's no doubt that right or wrong this is part has been part of the very powerful appeal of of the theory this however is still very
秩序、新世界的到来；这种传统在宗教改革时期爆发出来；某种意义上，在法国大革命的极端教派那里也存在，他们同样有着“新开端”的想法，你知道，他们在1791年（我想是）颁布了新的历法法令。这是一个非常重要的特征，它经由黑格尔、经由黑格尔的著作汇入了马克思主义，尤其是这样一种观念：在一个和谐、和平、圆满的新时代到来之前，会有一段冲突最激烈、苦难最深重的时期，一场伟大的最终斗争。这与科学并不必然不相容。我是说，如果马克思关于人类历史的看法真的是对的，那么结果就会是：那些弥赛亚式运动在无意中具有先见之明，就像某些神话是原子理论等等的先驱一样。但毫无疑问，无论对错，这一直是这一理论极其强大的感召力的一部分。不过这仍然远远不同于你所指出的那种情况——
11感召力之源：科学与新纪元的结合
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far from what you were pointing out the established developments of established religion with heresy trials and the holy office and all the paraphernalia which is grown up where marxists societies have established themselves officially but I mean you would do agree that that parallel exists oh yes unquestionably yes yes now this really takes me naturally to the next question I wanted to put to which is this in view of all the things that we've agreed are either wrong with Marx's Theory or if that's too crude a way of putting it in view of the limitations and shortcomings of the theory how does one explain the spell binding appeal that this theory has had to so many such enormous numbers of people I mean you you've begun so to speak halfway to answer this now in in what you've been saying but I'd like you to to unpack that a little more yes I think that if we go back to these two sides of it and see that it combines them some of the most important and the most appealing theories in history have
建制化宗教的那些发展：异端审判、宗教裁判所，以及在马克思主义社会正式确立的地方生长出来的全套排场。但我是说，你确实同意那种类比是存在的吧？哦，是的，毫无疑问，是的，是的。这自然就把我引到了我想问的下一个问题，就是：鉴于我们已经一致认为马克思理论中或者是错误的那些方面——如果这么说太粗糙的话，那就说：鉴于这一理论的局限和缺陷，人们该如何解释它对如此众多的人所具有的那种令人着迷的感召力？我是说，在你刚才所说的话里，你已经可以说回答了一半，但我想请你再展开讲讲。是的，我想，如果我们回到它的这两个方面，就会看到它把两者结合在了一起。历史上一些最重要、最有感召力的理论，
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been a theory that combine two things that people want to combine and they can't easily combine in life and the claim to be a science to be something firmly established to be something very much of modern times which is cast off the Superstition of the old days and yet at the same time answering that deep hunger for a new age a new era a freedom of fulfillment that these two can be held together I think it's been very powerful playing very powerful appeal and it's gone right through tremendous gamut I mean all the way from intellectuals semi-disabused intellectuals in Western societies through Marxism is very much a private orientation to their their studying whatever they're studying because they haven't maybe a popular movement but but are as we're attracted by the same combination from their point of view all the way to third world countries third world populations where because there's been a rapid breakdown of a established set of traditions something new has to take its place some
都是那种把人们想要结合、但在生活中又难以结合的两样东西结合起来的理论。而宣称自己是一门科学，是一套牢固确立的东西，是极具现代性的东西，摆脱了旧时代的迷信，而与此同时，它又回应了那种对新时代、新纪元、对一种自由实现的深切渴望，这两者能够被结合在一起——我认为这一直有着非常强大的、非常强大的吸引力，而且它贯穿了极其广阔的范围，我是说，从西方社会里的知识分子、半是幻灭的知识分子，对他们来说，马克思主义在很大程度上是一种私人的取向，指导他们的研究，不管他们研究的是什么，因为他们或许并没有一场群众运动，但从他们的角度看，他们同样被这种结合所吸引，一直延伸到第三世界国家、第三世界的民众，在那里，由于一套既有的传统迅速瓦解，必须有某种新东西来取代它，某种关于生活的新的全球图景，尤其是一种能提供未来的图景，
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new Global picture of of life particularly one that offers a future and that can claim to be modern and the same mixture seen from a different angle we're a new Heaven and a new Earth but established by science by what is quintessentially modern has its appeal and so we have this tremendous gamut of different publics and different kinds of people which this combination can can appeal to it may be that Marxism may be eclipsed in this I mean in this in the second function by as it already in a way has been partly by nationalism or we may find and this is perhaps unlike religion a whole lot of hybrids growing up which have taken in in different Societies in the world today official ideologies which have taken some things from Marxism and mixed them up with other elements which are terribly important in that Society particularly National elements so that we will have African Socialism or a Arab socialism all of which oh something to Marxism but may try to make it part of a broader mix but in all these cases you
并且能自称是现代的。同样的这种混合，从另一个角度看，就是一个新天新地，只不过是由科学、由那种最典型的现代事物所确立的——这就有了它的吸引力。于是我们就有了如此广泛的不同受众，以及各种不同的人群，这种结合都能打动他们。也可能马克思主义在这一点上会被取代，我是说在这第二种功能上被民族主义取代，某种程度上它其实已经部分被取代了；或者我们会发现——这一点或许和宗教不同——在今天世界上不同的社会里，会生长出大量的混合体，官方意识形态从马克思主义中吸取了一些东西，再把它们和那个社会里极其重要的其他要素混在一起，尤其是民族的要素，于是我们就有了非洲社会主义、阿拉伯社会主义，所有这些都或多或少有点马克思主义的成分，但可能试图把它变成一种更宽泛的混合物的一部分。不过在所有这些情形中，你都能看到一种做同样事情的努力：
12苏联是扭曲还是必然：列宁与马克思
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can see an attempt to do the same kind of thing to have a global view of things perhaps also which saves the tradition from which people come and yet which can claim somehow to be radical new A New Beginning quintessentially modern and founded on the most solid establishment of modern civilization namely science and now we come to what for many people is I think the 64 question that is the relationship of all this to actual uh communist societies and the relationship and the problems exhibited by the relationship are one of the central themes of modern Marxist writers uh let me put it to you this way there seem to be two basic schools of thought about this relationship one says that the that societies like the Soviet Union are a perversion of the system of of the theory that they are the theory gone wrong and and one such school of thought blames Stalin and stalinism for what went wrong and so on but there's another school of thought that says no uh this outcome was always implicit in the
拥有一种关于世界的整体图景，或许还能保住人们所出身的传统，同时又能以某种方式宣称自己是激进的、崭新的，是一个新开端，是最典型的现代产物，并且奠基于现代文明中最坚实的成就，也就是科学。现在我们来谈谈对许多人来说、我想是那个价值六万四千美元的问题，也就是所有这一切与真实存在的共产主义社会之间的关系；这种关系以及它所暴露出的问题是当代马克思主义作者的核心主题之一。让我这样来问吧：关于这种关系，似乎有两大基本的思想流派。一派认为，像苏联这样的社会是对这套体系、这套理论的扭曲，是理论走了样；这一派中有人把出错的原因归咎于斯大林和斯大林主义等等。但另一派则说，不，这个结果从一开始就隐含在理论之中。
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theory and one interesting fact about that is that from the beginning it contained many revolutionary left-wing people for example the early some of the early anarchists always prophesied that if Marx's theories were put into effect they would issue in a despotism a a dictatorship and later on you get Rosa Luxembourg the revolutionary leader of the German socialists at the time of the first world war saying that if Lenin's views were put into effect they would be bound to issue in a pre-state now which of those two uh views roughly speaking do you sympathize with well Rosa Luxembourg I mean she was saying Lenin's views not Marx's views and I think that that is the right uh Theory I mean of course if you go back to any theorist who never had his theory put into effect in his lifetime which is theorizing you can find a great many things that's uh with this attitude and that attitude can lead to almost any result think of the academic gain people play with so is he totalitarian is he liberal and so on
关于这一点，一个有意思的事实是，从一开始就有不少革命的左翼人士持这种看法，比如说，早期的一些无政府主义者一直预言，如果马克思的理论被付诸实践，就会导致专制、导致一种独裁。后来还有罗莎·卢森堡，第一次世界大战时期德国社会主义者的革命领袖，她说如果列宁的观点被付诸实践，就必定会产生一个……（这样的）国家。那么大致说来，这两种看法你比较认同哪一种？嗯，罗莎·卢森堡——我是说，她讲的是列宁的观点，不是马克思的观点，我认为这才是对的看法。当然啦，如果你回头去看任何一位生前从未见过自己理论被付诸实践的理论家，那纯粹是理论推演，你可以找到很多东西，说这种态度、那种态度几乎可以导致任何结果——想想学界里人们玩的那种游戏：他到底是极权主义的，还是自由主义的，如此等等。不过毫无疑问，在马克思看来，革命之后应当出现的，
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there's no doubt however that in Marx's view what ought to follow from a revolution would be what he indeed he discussed the French commune of 1871 in these terms would be even more radical basic democracy than we have in any Western society today with recall of delegates and so on the um the type of command Society we see developing the Soviet Union very much emerges however honorableism out of Lenin's view of the party as a a command structure and out of the situation which Lennon found himself so I think that there's a little bit of over wisdom after the fact in reading all that back into Marxism the only thing you can say is that the very idea the very belief that one is going to bring about a conflictless society ill equips one as you said earlier ill equips one to develop a model for how to work in conflict that Mark would have had great deal of trouble if his theories had actually worked out in his lifetime but from that to say that he had something like the germs of a totalitarian system
确实是他在讨论1871年巴黎公社时所描述的那种东西，是一种比今天任何西方社会都更为激进的基层民主，包括代表的罢免权等等。而我们看到在苏联发展起来的那种指令型社会，在很大程度上——不管怎么说——是从列宁把党看作一种指令结构的观点中产生的，也是从列宁当时所处的处境中产生的。所以我认为，把这一切回溯到马克思主义头上，多少有点事后诸葛亮的味道。你唯一能说的是，那种观念本身、那种相信自己将要带来一个无冲突社会的信念，正如你前面说的，使人无从发展出一套在冲突中如何运作的模式。如果他的理论真的在他生前得以实现，马克思会遇到大麻烦。但要从这一点跳到说他的思维方式里就有某种极权体系的萌芽——我认为列宁那里毫无疑问是有的——我觉得这是
13修正主义、实践派与依附理论
40:04
in his mode of operating which I think Lenin unquestionably had I think it's a great great jump and it's not at all Justified yeah have given that the uh that all of the known uh Marxist movements would have actually come to power have Institute have resulted in fact in bureaucratic dictatorships how do you think they're going to get out of this do you think they will have to aband that the societies will have to abandon the theory of Marxism if they are to evolve into non-dictatorial Societies or do you think they can do that on the basis of some reconstruction yes Marxist I mean it's very unlike at the Soviet Union will do this in the base of a reconstructed Marxism but it is possible ever since this shock occurs a Marxism taking over and making such a horrifying regime there has been attempts by what are called revisionists other marxists many in the west but elsewhere even some in Yugoslavia to work out to ReDiscover their Marxism an extremely interesting and fruitful ideas have been developed
一个非常非常大的跳跃，完全站不住脚。是的。鉴于所有已知的、真正取得政权的马克思主义运动，事实上都建立起了官僚独裁，你认为它们要怎样才能摆脱这一点？你认为这些社会如果要演变成非独裁的社会，就必须放弃马克思主义理论吗，还是说你认为它们可以在某种重构的基础上做到这一点？是的，马克思主义——我是说，苏联极不可能在重构过的马克思主义基础上做到这一点，但这是有可能的。自从出现了马克思主义上台却造就出如此可怕政权这一冲击以来，一直有人在尝试——那些被称为修正主义者的其他马克思主义者，很多在西方，但别的地方也有，甚至南斯拉夫也有一些——去重新发现他们的马克思主义，沿着这些路子发展出了极其有趣、极富成果的思想。我想你在1968年的捷克斯洛伐克就开始看到
41:02
along these these lines I think you began to see in 68 in Czechoslovakia the beginnings of a society summer food sources some of whose intellectual sources would have been revised Marxism of a free society which was nipped in the bud and a substantial amount of thought has gone on as I mentioned in Yugoslavia where again it's not really very possible to put it into practice indeed those who think these thoughts have some of them have lost their their jobs but nevertheless there is there is a possible living development of Marxism which could be the basis for this kind of society whether you have the political conditions in which this kind of thing could happen in Eastern Europe is another question I think it's very very different so far in this discussion we've confined ourselves and I think we've been right to do this to the Marxism of Marx but now that we've said to speak brought the discussion up to date and you've been talking about the ferment of ideas going on among contemporary some contemporary Marxist
一个社会的雏形，一个自由社会的雏形，它的部分思想来源正是修正后的马克思主义，只可惜被扼杀在萌芽之中。另外，正如我提到的，南斯拉夫也进行了大量的思考，虽然在那里同样很难付诸实践，实际上那些提出这些思想的人当中，有些人还因此丢了工作，但尽管如此，马克思主义确实存在一种可能的、活生生的发展方向，可以成为这类社会的基础。至于东欧是否具备让这种事情发生的政治条件，那是另一个问题，我想那非常非常不一样。到目前为止，在这场讨论中我们把自己限定在——我认为这样做是对的——马克思本人的马克思主义上。但既然我们已经把讨论带到了当下，而你刚才谈到了当代一些马克思主义思想家中间正在发酵的种种观念，如果可以的话，我想在结束
42:00
thinkers I'd like to just finish the discussion if I may by asking you if you'd pick out one or two of the more recent Marxist thinkers and tell us something about the particular developments of Marxism for which they're responsible yes well I think that there's two really quite different just to give an example in quite different areas one is the Praxis group in Yugoslavia that I would be referring to earlier which a set of markers who've tried to return to the basis of marxist humanism and to work out the theory of a Libertarian Society based on on Marxism this is one of the most interesting developments and they're the they're perhaps the center many other people have contributed to it uh they've drawn on a number of other other thinkers they've been perhaps the in some ways the more spectacular because the the bravest of of this group another area completely Marxism has been very fruitful in developing um economic theory of the world economy I mean that's the strength of Marxism is to see an economic system as a whole
讨论时问你：能否挑出一两位较晚近的马克思主义思想家，给我们讲讲他们各自在马克思主义上做出的具体发展？好的，我想有两个真的很不一样的例子，分别在很不同的领域。一个是南斯拉夫的“实践派”（Praxis）——我前面提到过的那批马克思主义者，他们试图回到马克思主义人道主义的根基，并在马克思主义基础上发展出一种自由至上社会的理论。这是最有意思的发展之一，他们大概是这个圈子的中心，也有许多其他人对此做出了贡献，他们借鉴了若干别的思想家。在某些方面他们或许是最引人注目的，因为他们是这一群体中最勇敢的。另一个完全不同的领域是，马克思主义在发展世界经济的经济理论方面非常富有成果。我是说，马克思主义的长处就在于把一个经济体系当作一个整体来看，是整体决定了各个部分的角色。由此发展出一种
43:00
which is the word determines the roles of its parts and the development of a theory of underdevelopment of the way in which the structure of the world economy to some extent forces under development actually brings about underdevelopment certain societies and prevents them from from developing attribute certain roles in which societies are are stuck I think that's been one of the most fruitful developments of marxist economics and these two ways if you like in an attempt to come to terms with capitalism as it is today 100 years after Marx wrote Capital and very different and secondly in an attempt to ReDiscover libertarian sources in Marxism I think we have perhaps the two most interesting developments of non-official Marxism one outstanding feature of the history of communist countries is has been that the great political leaders like Lenin and Stalin and Mao tsitung have also had pretensions to be philosophers do you actually credit any of them with any outstanding philosophical capacity no
不发达理论，说明世界经济的结构如何在某种程度上强加了不发达状态，实际上如何造成某些社会的不发达，阻止它们发展，并把某些角色分派给它们，使这些社会被困在其中。我认为这是马克思主义经济学最富成果的发展之一。可以说，这就是两条路径：一是试图理解今天的资本主义——马克思写《资本论》一百年之后、已经大不相同的资本主义；二是试图重新发现马克思主义中的自由至上主义源头。我想这大概就是非官方马克思主义最有意思的两项发展。共产主义国家历史上一个突出的特点是，像列宁、斯大林、毛泽东这样的伟大政治领袖，都还自命为哲学家。你真的认为他们当中有谁具有出众的哲学才能吗？不，哲学上没有。我是说，列宁是一位伟大的
44:01
philosophical no I mean Lenin uh great political a political strategist and a very clear thinker about that start on the less said the better Mao no no I mean it would be too much to expect that such men should also be philosophers so in other words you think that for the new Marxist ideas we need to look not at uh not to the political leaders but to the philosophers to the writers of other kind Scholars and the economists and so on yes and especially not to those political leaders but precisely to a number of very important things that have that have come in the Marxist tradition and have added to our understanding of it that is the that's going to be the groundwork for any new germination thank you very much thank you Professor Taylor [Music]
政治家、政治战略家，在这方面头脑非常清晰；斯大林嘛，还是少说为妙；毛，不，不。我是说，要指望这样的人同时还是哲学家，那要求也太高了。那么换句话说，你认为要找到新的马克思主义思想，我们应该看的不是政治领袖，而是哲学家、别的那类作者、学者、经济学家等等？是的，尤其不该看那些政治领袖，而恰恰应该看马克思主义传统中出现的、增进了我们理解的一批非常重要的成果，那才是任何新萌发的基础。非常感谢。谢谢你，泰勒教授。[音乐]
视频总结 · 一句话概括与核心要点
一句话概括
Charles Taylor 与 Bryan Magee 认为马克思主义由"解释理论"和"解放理论"两翼构成，二者的结合既是其席卷全球的魅力之源，也是其内在张力、无法处理冲突、并在实践中滑向极权的根源。
核心要点
- 马克思主义有两翼，而非一翼：Magee 开场给出的是常见的"解释理论"（生产方式决定一切、阶级斗争、暴力革命）；Taylor 补充了被忽视的"解放理论"——人类区别于蚁蜂之处在于能反思并改变自己与自然的互动方式，历史即人从"必然王国"（受自然奴役）逐步自我解放、征服自然的过程。
- 异化是进步付出的必然代价：要产生剩余产品、推动进步，原始统一社会必须分工并分裂为统治者与被统治者；结果是人类集体的控制能力反被内部分裂所剥夺，社会受"非人格的、无人能支配的规律"驱动——资本主义是这一悖论的顶点，《资本论》描绘的正是资本积累规律不受任何人控制、碾压人类的图景。
- 共产主义的核心是"表现性自我实现"：马克思认为劳动不仅是谋生的工具，更是人作为"集体的艺术家"表达自身的方式；阶级社会（包括资本主义）只让人"活着"，而消除脑体分工、克服异化后，人类全部控制力将服务于表达性的追求。
- 解释理论与解放理论并不兼容：若把马克思主义当作牛顿式的科学（历史受铁律支配），就无法解释为何革命后人类能"收回"此前受规律支配的领域；政治运动不能放弃任一翼——科学性赋予其"现代性"与反迷信的权威，解放性提供弥赛亚式的未来——但每个马克思主义理论家都为此尴尬，一派干脆抛弃解放理论。
- 解放理论恰恰解释了苏联式极权的严酷：Taylor 的"残酷悖论"——若苏联只是沙俄式专制，不必如此深入塑造人的生活；正因其以解放意识形态为基础，它要求人们不仅服从还必须"喜欢并相信"，任何觉得体制"精神空虚"的证据（尤其是艺术家的表达）都被视为不可容忍，异见者甚至被送进精神病院。
- 最大理论缺陷是否认冲突：Magee 指出两个人相处都会有利益与意见的冲突，资源又是"残酷有限"的，政治的核心问题正是如何不用暴力解决冲突；马克思主义断言共产社会无冲突，因此毫无处理个人与社会、少数与多数对立的资源，这也是它"在自由问题上表现糟糕"的原因。Taylor 同意，并补充这种"无冲突和谐王国"的确信为暴力破坏现存秩序发放了许可证，使其成为一种"应用于政治的永久正义战争论"。
- 历史事实对理论构成两面挑战：革命发生在落后的俄国而非马克思预言的英、德等最先进工业国，"为何西方没有发生"是马克思主义者持续争论的最大问题；同时苏联经验也不能算是对该理论的"检验"。
- 马克思主义只在三个层面中的一个运作：Magee 认为伟大哲学与宗教在个人（心身、自我、道德、死亡）、社会、宇宙三个层面均有解释力，而马克思主义几乎只在社会层面运作。Taylor 认为恩格斯的"自然辩证法"对宇宙"说得太多"（哲学上是胡说），个人层面确实欠发达但未必是先验不可能，只是被忙于革命的政治运动压抑，其美学与道德理论仍有待开发。
- "科学"一词的时代局限：马克思自认其资本理论与物理学同等严格，但任何关于人类动机、历史的理论都无法达到这种精确与可验证性；且19世纪人们相信科学知识是确定无误的，今天这一观念已被普遍抛弃。
- 宗教式传播与弥赛亚根源：一个在大英博物馆靠朋友接济的流亡知识分子，死后不到70年，三分之一人类生活在以其名字命名的政权下，历史上唯有伊斯兰教与基督教的传播可比。Taylor 追溯其根源至中世纪千禧年运动、宗教改革极端派、法国大革命新历法，经由黑格尔传入的"最后大斗争之后迎来和谐新时代"的叙事。
结论与值得注意的细节
- 魅力的解释：马克思主义把人们渴望却难以兼得的两样东西合二为一——"科学的、现代的、扫除迷信的"确定性，与"新天新地"的解放渴望；这一组合覆盖了从西方半幻灭知识分子到传统迅速崩溃的第三世界人群，并催生了"非洲社会主义""阿拉伯社会主义"等与民族主义混合的杂交意识形态，未来可能被民族主义部分取代。
- 极权是列宁而非马克思的产物：Taylor 反驳"极权始终隐含于理论"的说法——早期无政府主义者的预言与罗莎·卢森堡的警告针对的是列宁的政党指挥结构；马克思讨论1871年巴黎公社时设想的是比任何西方社会更彻底的基层民主（如代表随时可罢免）。他只承认：无冲突的信念使马克思若真掌权也会"麻烦很大"，但由此推出极权萌芽是"毫无根据的巨大跳跃"。
- 改革出路：苏联本身不太可能依据修正后的马克思主义转型，但1968年布拉格之春的部分思想源头正是修正马克思主义，南斯拉夫"实践派"（Praxis group）试图重建马克思主义人道主义与自由社会理论，一些人为此丢了工作。
- 值得关注的当代发展：一是南斯拉夫实践派的自由主义转向；二是马克思主义经济学对世界经济体系与"不发达理论"的分析——世界经济结构本身把某些社会锁定在不发达角色中。
- 政治领袖不是哲学家：Taylor 明确表示列宁是出色的政治战略家但非哲学家，斯大林"少说为妙"，毛泽东也不是；马克思主义的新萌芽只能来自学者、作家与经济学家。
- 节目背景细节：Taylor 曾是英国新左派的创始人之一，多次竞选加拿大联邦议员，著有关于黑格尔的重要著作，时任牛津万灵学院社会与政治理论教授。
核心句型 · 9
1. X must be far and away the most … to have + 过去分词
“Marxism must be Far and Away the most influential New Philosophy to have appeared in the last 150 years”
用 far and away 强化最高级，再以 to have done 限定范围。适合开场定调、给出强判断。仿写：This must be far and away the most cited paper to have come out of the lab.
2. what differentiates A from B is that …
“What differentiates them from ants or bees Marx holds is that human beings have this capacity to reflect on…”
主语从句 + is that 引出区别性特征，是学术表达中给定义、划界的常用骨架。中间可插入 X holds / argues 表明观点归属。
3. the tragedy / paradox of this is that …
“The tragedy of this if you like is that this great capacity … is something that we never can fully exercise”
先用抽象名词点明性质（tragedy、paradox、irony），再用 is that 展开，能让论证有张力。if you like 是口语中缓和措辞的插入语。
4. not simply / merely A but B
“There was an expressive Dimension not simply an instrumental Dimension to this”
并列对比两个维度，强调 B 才是关键。学术讨论中区分层次、纠正片面理解时常用，可与 dimension / aspect / function 搭配。
5. in a nutshell, that's what … means
“That's I think in a nutshell what overcoming alienation means”
用于长段解释后的收束，把复杂概念压缩为一句。适合口头汇报或写作段落结尾，前面可加 I think 保持谦逊。
6. it's not because … but because …（否定预期原因，给出真实原因）
“If it were content merely to be an autocracy … it wouldn't need to … but it's because it's a regime which is based on ideology of Liberation”
用虚拟条件句排除一种解释，再用 it's because 给出反直觉的真实原因，是提出「悖论性」洞见的有力结构。
7. In fairness to X, …
“In fairness to Marx that the notion of what constitutes science has changed radically”
在批评之后为对方说一句公道话，显示论证的平衡。适合讨论、评审、书评中转折时使用。
8. from that to say that … is a great jump
“From that to say that he had something like the germs of a totalitarian system … I think it's a great jump”
承认一个较弱结论、拒绝跳到更强结论，用 jump / leap 形容推理跨度过大。反驳滑坡式论证时非常好用。
9. the less said (about X) the better
“Stalin the less said the better”
委婉而有力的否定评价，暗示对象不值一提或过于糟糕。口语中带幽默色彩，正式写作慎用。
生词精讲 · 102 · 按出现顺序
Far and Away
phr.
0:23
远远地、无可争议地（用于强化最高级）
tenets
/ˈtɛnəts/
n.
0:23
信条、基本原则
means of production
phr.
0:23
生产资料（马克思主义术语）
deep-seated
/ˌdiːpˈsiːtɪd/
adj.
0:23
根深蒂固的
inaugurate
/ɪˈnɔːɡjəreɪt/
v.
1:34
开创、开启（新时代）
confers
/kənˈfɜːrz/
v.
1:34
授予、赋予
Prestige
/prɛˈstiːʒ/
n.
1:34
声望、威信
sketch map
n. phr.
1:34
草图，此处喻指粗略概述
in its own right
phr.
2:36
就其自身而言、本身就
progenitor
/proʊˈdʒɛnɪtər/
n.
2:36
先驱、鼻祖；始祖
thumbnail sketch
n. phr.
3:38
简明概述、提纲挈领的描述
gregarious
/ɡrɪˈɡɛriəs/
adj.
3:38
群居的；（人）爱社交的
monotonously
/məˈnɑːtənəsli/
adv.
4:35
单调地、一成不变地
the realm of Necessity
n. phr.
5:33
必然王国（马克思术语，与自由王国相对）
surplus
/ˈsɜːrpləs/
n.
5:33
剩余（产品）；盈余
impersonal
/ɪmˈpɜːrsənl/
adj.
6:32
非人格的、不受个人意志左右的
Apex
/ˈeɪpɛks/
n.
6:32
顶点、最高点
inexorable
/ɪnˈɛksərəbl/
adj.
7:41
不可阻挡的、无法改变的
alienation
/ˌeɪliəˈneɪʃn/
n.
7:41
异化（哲学术语）；疏离
write their own ticket
idiom
7:41
自己决定自己的命运、随心所欲地安排
bent
/bɛnt/
n.
7:41
倾向、天性（a bent towards…）
Indigent
/ˈɪndɪdʒənt/
adj.
8:47
贫困的、匮乏的
do away with
phr. v.
8:47
废除、消灭
hived off
phr. v.
9:49
被分离出去、被划分到某一部分（hive off）
recuperate
/rɪˈkuːpəreɪt/
v.
9:49
（此处）收回、重新获得；通常指康复
dire
/ˈdaɪər/
adj.
10:43
极其紧迫的、严峻的
for its own sake
phr.
10:43
为其自身之故、不为别的目的
instrumental
/ˌɪnstrəˈmɛntl/
adj.
10:43
工具性的（与 expressive 表现性相对）
self-realization
/ˌsɛlf ˌriːələˈzeɪʃn/
n.
10:43
自我实现
in a nutshell
idiom
11:47
简而言之
go back on
phr. v.
12:49
反悔、否认（已承认的东西）
checkered
/ˈtʃɛkərd/
adj.
12:49
曲折多变的、毁誉参半的
Pine after
phr. v.
12:49
渴慕、苦苦思念
facets
/ˈfæsɪts/
n.
13:51
方面、侧面
crude
/kruːd/
adj.
14:49
粗糙的、简单化的
unprecedented
/ʌnˈprɛsɪdɛntɪd/
adj.
14:49
前所未有的
scientism
/ˈsaɪəntɪzəm/
n.
15:46
科学主义（认为科学方法可解释一切的信念）
Messianic
/ˌmɛsiˈænɪk/
adj.
15:46
弥赛亚式的、救世主般的
quintessentially
/ˌkwɪntɪˈsɛnʃəli/
adv.
15:46
典型地、本质上
jettison
/ˈdʒɛtɪsn/
v.
15:46
抛弃、丢弃
totalitarianism
/toʊˌtælɪˈtɛriənɪzəm/
n.
16:51
极权主义
autocracy
/ɔːˈtɑːkrəsi/
n.
16:51
专制政体、独裁统治
at the limit
phr.
17:59
在极端情况下
intolerable
/ɪnˈtɑːlərəbl/
adj.
17:59
无法容忍的
posits
/ˈpɑːzɪts/
v.
18:58
假定、设定（posit）
Brute Force
n. phr.
18:58
蛮力、暴力
the law of the Jungle
idiom
18:58
丛林法则、弱肉强食
finite
/ˈfaɪnaɪt/
adj.
18:58
有限的
at odds with
phr.
19:55
与……对立、不一致
take up cudgels
idiom
19:55
抄起棍棒、（为某事）激烈争斗或捍卫
to the effect that
phr.
20:55
大意是……、意思是……
cluster
/ˈklʌstər/
n.
21:55
一组、一簇
dialectics
/ˌdaɪəˈlɛktɪks/
n.
23:02
辩证法
aestheticians
/ˌɛsθəˈtɪʃnz/
n.
24:07
美学家
a priori
/ˌeɪ praɪˈɔːraɪ/
adv./adj.
25:08
先验地、不依赖经验地
diminishing returns
n. phr.
25:08
收益递减
pacifist
/ˈpæsɪfɪst/
adj./n.
26:15
和平主义的；和平主义者
undercut
/ˌʌndərˈkʌt/
v.
26:15
削弱、瓦解
facility
/fəˈsɪləti/
n.
26:15
（此处）轻易、不假思索（the facility with which…）
reiterated
/riˈɪtəreɪtɪd/
v.
27:28
反复重申
the just War
n. phr.
27:28
正义战争（伦理学/政治理论术语）
prophecies
/ˈprɑːfəsiz/
n.
28:26
预言
hedged
/hɛdʒd/
v.
28:26
含糊其辞、留有余地（hedge）
Redeemed
/rɪˈdiːmd/
v.
28:26
（此处）兑现、被证实；赎回
on all fours with
idiom
28:26
与……完全对等、相提并论
purports
/pərˈpɔːrts/
v.
29:29
声称、自称
exactitude
/ɪɡˈzæktɪtuːd/
n.
29:29
精确性
infallible
/ɪnˈfæləbl/
adj.
29:29
不会出错的、绝对可靠的
In fairness to
phr.
29:29
为对……公平起见
schisms
/ˈskɪzəmz/
n.
30:26
分裂、分立（尤指宗教）
Heretics
/ˈhɛrətɪks/
n.
30:26
异端分子
Scribbler
/ˈskrɪblər/
n.
30:26
摇笔杆子的人、蹩脚作家（略带贬义）
Orthodoxy
/ˈɔːrθədɑːksi/
n.
31:27
正统（教义）
kernel
/ˈkɜːrnl/
n.
31:27
核心、内核
Strife
/straɪf/
n.
32:27
冲突、争斗
prescient
/ˈprɛʃənt/
adj.
32:27
有先见之明的
forerunners
/ˈfɔːrrʌnərz/
n.
32:27
先驱、前身
paraphernalia
/ˌpærəfərˈneɪliə/
n.
33:35
全套装备、繁复的排场
spell binding
adj.
33:35
令人着迷的（spellbinding）
unpack
/ʌnˈpæk/
v.
33:35
（比喻）详细阐释、展开分析
cast off
phr. v.
34:35
摆脱、抛弃
gamut
/ˈɡæmət/
n.
34:35
全部范围、整个领域（run the gamut）
disabused
/ˌdɪsəˈbjuːzd/
adj.
34:35
幻灭的、被纠正错误认识的
eclipsed
/ɪˈklɪpst/
v.
35:39
使黯然失色、取代
hybrids
/ˈhaɪbrɪdz/
n.
35:39
混合体
the 64 question
idiom
36:48
最关键、最难回答的问题（the $64,000 question）
perversion
/pərˈvɜːrʒn/
n.
36:48
歪曲、扭曲
despotism
/ˈdɛspətɪzəm/
n.
37:55
专制统治
issue in
phr. v.
37:55
导致、产生（某结果）
recall of delegates
n. phr.
38:59
代表罢免制
ill equips
v. phr.
38:59
使……缺乏应对能力
germs
/dʒɜːrmz/
n.
38:59
（此处）萌芽、起源
bureaucratic
/ˌbjʊrəˈkrætɪk/
adj.
40:04
官僚（主义）的
revisionists
/rɪˈvɪʒənɪsts/
n.
40:04
修正主义者
nipped in the bud
idiom
41:02
扼杀于萌芽状态
ferment
/ˈfɜːrmɛnt/
n.
41:02
（思想的）骚动、发酵
Libertarian
/ˌlɪbərˈtɛriən/
adj.
42:00
自由至上主义的
underdevelopment
/ˌʌndərdɪˈvɛləpmənt/
n.
43:00
不发达（状态）
come to terms with
idiom
43:00
设法理解并接受、正视
pretensions
/prɪˈtɛnʃnz/
n.
43:00
自命、妄称（have pretensions to be…）
the less said the better
idiom
44:01
还是少说为妙
germination
/ˌdʒɜːrmɪˈneɪʃn/
n.
44:01
萌发、发芽
理解自测 · 11 题 · 是真懂了，还是以为自己懂
1. 主持人麦基在开场概述中，把马克思主义的基本主张归结为哪几点？
麦基的草图包含四个环节：第一，社会中真正重要的一切由它如何维持自身存在决定，即生产资料决定人与自然、人与人的关系；第二，生产资料变化则生活方式、人际关系与阶级组织随之变化；第三，只要生产资料掌握在部分人手中，阶级冲突不可避免，因而迄今历史都是阶级斗争史；第四，生产资料由全社会共同占有将开启共产主义新纪元，而由于统治阶级不会自愿放权，暴力推翻现存制度被视为正当。这一概述出现在第1—2段，泰勒随后评价它「都对，但内容远不止于此」。
2. 泰勒认为，除了「解释理论」之外，马克思主义还有哪个维度？他如何界定人与蚂蚁、蜜蜂的区别？
泰勒补充的是「解放理论」维度，他认为正是这一维度造就了马克思主义在过去一个世纪激发的巨大热情。他从同一起点出发：人作为群居动物生产生活资料，这一点上与蚂蚁、蜜蜂无异；但马克思认为人的劳动包含「反思」，人能够反思并改变自己作用于自然的方式，从而随时间获得越来越大的控制力。这种历史性的进步就是自由的增长。见第4—5段，这一区分成为整期节目的骨架。
3. 泰勒列举了当代非官方马克思主义的哪两项最有意思的发展？
第一是南斯拉夫的「实践派」，一批试图回到马克思主义人道主义根基、在马克思主义基础上发展自由至上社会理论的思想家，泰勒称他们是这一群体中「最勇敢的」；第二是马克思主义经济学中的「不发达理论」，即从世界经济整体结构出发，说明核心与外围的关系如何强加并维持某些社会的不发达状态。泰勒把两者概括为：一是正视《资本论》一百年后大不相同的资本主义，二是重新发现马克思主义中的自由源头。见第41—42段。
4. 泰勒所说的「悖论」是什么？为什么进步的条件恰恰导致了异化？
悖论在于：人类有控制自身劳动与生活方式的巨大能力，但这种能力只有作为整体的人类社会才能行使；而进步的最初必要条件——分工、剩余产品、严格纪律——必然导致一部分人支配另一部分人，即阶级分化。结果是控制权从人类手中滑落，社会遵循非人格的规律运行，其顶峰就是《资本论》描绘的资本主义：资本积累规律不受任何人控制地推进。马克思用「异化」指称这一状况：人自己发展出的潜能被自身内部分裂夺走。见第6—8段，这是解放理论的核心论证。
5. 为什么泰勒说解释理论与解放理论「并不总能很好契合」？请复述他用牛顿类比展开的推理。
若把马克思主义当作牛顿式科学，用不可抗拒的规律解释历史，就像牛顿定律解释行星运动，那么人在任何时期都受铁律支配。但解放理论主张，从资本主义到共产主义的革命使人「夺回」了此前受规律支配的生活领域，即某些事物先受规律控制、后被收归自由——这一观念无法整齐纳入牛顿式模型。泰勒补充：马克思的实际立场较温和，即不同社会形态有不同性质的规律，共产主义只是质变最大的一次。但作为政治运动它两者都不能放弃：解放理论提供弥赛亚式未来，科学主张提供现代性与坚实基础。见第13—16段。
6. 泰勒如何解释「一种解放理论何以成为极权社会的意识形态」这一悖论？
泰勒的论证是反直觉的：苏联极权不是「尽管」有解放理论，而是「因为」有解放理论。如果它只满足于做像沙皇政权那样的专制政体，就无需如此深度地干预、控制、塑造人们的生活；但一个以解放为根基的政权必须让人不仅服从，而且喜欢它、相信它，任何表明人们觉得它精神空洞的证据都必须被压制，甚至把异见者送进精神病院——因为按理论，只有疯子才会这样看。他进一步指出，由于马克思主义把人视为表现自我的艺术家，艺术家的言论在此体制下变得至高重要，不合拍者便绝对不可容忍。见第17—18段。
7. 麦基提出的「三个层面」框架是什么？泰勒对此接受了哪部分、修正了哪部分？
麦基认为伟大的哲学、意识形态或宗教在三个层面提供解释：个体层面（生死、意识、灵魂、道德感、身心问题）、社会层面（政治、历史）和宇宙层面（时空、物质世界），而马克思主义几乎只运作于中间层面。泰勒接受「对个体无话可说」这一批评更有力，但修正了「对宇宙无话可说」：他认为恩格斯发展、苏联奉行的「自然辩证法」从哲学上讲多是胡说，马克思主义对自然宇宙什么都不说反而更好，何况现代意识形态或宗教也没有什么可说。对个体沉默，他则怀疑是政治运动接管理论造成的历史偶然。见第22—24段。
8. 对于「苏联是理论的扭曲还是理论的必然」，泰勒站在哪一边？他的理由是什么？
泰勒基本认同「扭曲说」，但有保留。他指出罗莎·卢森堡批评的是列宁而非马克思；马克思讨论1871年巴黎公社时设想的是比任何西方社会都激进的基层民主，包括代表罢免制；苏联的指令型社会源自列宁把党视为指令结构的观点及其所处处境。把这一切回溯到马克思头上是「事后诸葛亮」。他唯一承认的是：相信将带来无冲突社会的信念，使人无从发展在冲突中运作的模式，若马克思的理论在他生前实现，他会遇到大麻烦；但从这一点跳到说马克思思想中已有极权萌芽，是「非常大的、完全站不住脚的跳跃」。见第36—39段。
9. 泰勒如何解释马克思主义对如此众多人群的「令人着迷的感召力」？
泰勒认为历史上最有感召力的理论，往往把人们想要结合却难以在生活中结合的两样东西结合起来。马克思主义一方面宣称自己是科学，是摆脱旧时代迷信、牢固确立的现代事物；另一方面又回应人们对新时代、新纪元、自由实现的深切渴望——「新天新地，但由科学确立」。这种结合贯穿极广的受众：西方半幻灭的知识分子把它当作研究的私人取向，第三世界民众在传统瓦解后需要一种既能提供未来又能自称现代的整体图景。他还预见马克思主义会与民族主义混合成非洲社会主义、阿拉伯社会主义等混合体。见第33—36段。
10. 麦基说马克思主义「在自由问题上表现糟糕」是因为它不承认冲突。如果一位马克思主义者回应说「我们只是认为经济剥削导致的深层冲突会消失，并不否认所有冲突」，按本期的讨论应如何评价这一辩护？
泰勒本人在第20段正是替马克思主义者做了这一回应，说麦基「有点不公平」。但他随即承认麦基的基本要点成立：即便只预见深层冲突消失，马克思主义在智识上仍没有资源去处理冲突，也没有一个允许冲突存在的社会如何运作的模型，而且一旦为此留出余地，就有越出马克思主义边界之感。所以这一辩护只能减轻指控的强度，不能消解它——问题不在于是否承认某些冲突，而在于是否有制度化解决个人与社会、少数与多数对立的方案，这正是政治的本义（第19段）。泰勒在第26段进一步指出，对无冲突未来的确信还会成为暴力摧毁现状的许可证，这使该辩护的代价更高。
11. 麦基提到「科学观念在一百年里已根本改变」，科学如今被视为可错的、暂时的。若把这一观点应用于马克思主义，它对「解放理论」和「科学主张」的张力有何影响？泰勒会如何回应？
麦基（受波普尔影响）的论点是：19世纪中叶的人以为科学知识确定无误，马克思据此把自己的资本科学与物理学相提并论；若他生活在今天，会采用可错的科学模型。泰勒表示同意，并补充这样一来「跟弥赛亚式的一面就不太合得来了」——推理链是：解放理论的政治力量依赖于对无冲突未来的确定性（第26段），而这种确定性借自19世纪「科学=确定」的观念（第29段：达尔文搞清了生物，物理学搞清了自然，马克思要搞清社会历史）；一旦科学被理解为可错的、暂时的，科学主张就不再能为弥赛亚式许诺背书，两者的结合（第34段感召力之源）便会松动。因此这一观点不仅削弱马克思的科学自诩，也间接瓦解了解放理论的确定性基础，这正是泰勒所说修正主义者需要「重新发现」马克思主义的背景。
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