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第 63 期 · 核心追问 Ⅲ·08「理性是解放，还是控制？」
The Frankfurt School - Herbert Marcuse & Bryan Magee (1977)
节目发布 2022-04-02章节 · 点击跳转视频
0:00
法兰克福学派的缘起与三位核心人物
2:29
1968 与马尔库塞：我不是导师
5:12
反智主义与新左派的自我批评
9:05
社会主义为何变得像它的敌人
11:59
被整合的工人阶级与心理学的引入
13:30
马克思与弗洛伊德能否结合
17:47
缺陷这么多，为何仍是马克思主义者
21:40
研究所群像：霍克海默、阿多诺及被遗忘者
24:34
异化：概念的复兴与庸俗化
27:19
正面贡献：西方文明哪里出错了
31:31
美学：艺术打开被压抑的维度
34:31
妇女解放、精英主义指责与晦涩文风
本期小问 · 档案清单
27:19
理性是解放，还是控制？
31:31
什么是「好的生活」？
9:05
效率就是正确吗？
17:47
预言落空后，理论还该被坚持吗？
本期讲者
赫伯特·马尔库塞1898–1979，德裔美国哲学家，法兰克福学派核心成员，著有《爱欲与文明》《单向度的人》《论解放》，被 1960 年代新左派学生运动奉为思想旗帜。
Bryan Magee1930–2019，英国哲学普及作家、广播主持人及工党议员，主持 BBC 系列《Men of Ideas》（1978）与《The Great Philosophers》（1987），著有《哲学的故事》。
01法兰克福学派的缘起与三位核心人物
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[Music] the economic convulsions that wracked western societies between the two world wars were seen at the time by most marxists as being the breakdown of the capitalist system which marxist theory had always predicted however whereas according to the theory this was supposed to lead to communism in not one single such western society did communist regimes emerge what did emerge in several of them was fascism some marxists were disillusioned by this to the point of abandoning marxism others refused to question marxist theory regardless of what actually happened but there were many in between people who remained or wanted to remain marxists but who felt that marxism would have to be seriously re-examined if it was to continue to remain credible one such group of people came together in frankfurt in the late 1920s and have come to be known since as the frankfurt school actually they didn't stay in frankfurt long but the name was stuck they left germany in the early 1930s in the period just before and after the
[音乐] 两次世界大战之间席卷西方社会的经济动荡，在当时大多数马克思主义者看来，正是马克思主义理论一直预言的资本主义制度的崩溃。然而，按照这套理论，崩溃本应导致共产主义，可西方社会中没有一个出现了共产主义政权。真正出现的，在其中几个国家里，是法西斯主义。有些马克思主义者因此幻灭，甚至干脆放弃了马克思主义；另一些人则无论现实如何都拒绝质疑马克思主义理论。但也有很多处在两者之间的人，他们仍然是、或者仍想做马克思主义者，但觉得马克思主义必须经过认真的重新检视，才能继续保有可信度。其中一群人在20年代末聚集到法兰克福，后来被称为法兰克福学派。其实他们在法兰克福待的时间并不长，但这个名字沿用了下来。他们在30年代初离开德国，就在纳粹上台前后那段时期；到了30年代中期，
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nazis came to power and by the mid-30s the key figures had all settled in the united states these to mention three were adorno a man who seemed equally at home in philosophy sociology and music hawkheimer a philosopher comes sociologist less brilliant than adorno but perhaps more solid and the one who has turned out in the end to be the most famous and influential of them all the political theorists herbert marcusa their influence grew slowly but grew nevertheless over a long period and reached a spectacular peak in the 1960s many things contributed to this one was the powerful revisionist movement among marxist in communist countries throughout eastern europe culminating in the prague spring of 1968 this put the frankfurt school in line for the first time with real-life developments inside the communist world another obviously related was the tremendous revival of interest in marxism among people in the west especially educated young people this also culminated in 1968 the year which saw the high point of student
几位核心人物都已在美国定居。举三个人为例：阿多诺，一个在哲学、社会学和音乐领域似乎同样游刃有余的人；霍克海默，一位哲学家兼社会学家，才华不如阿多诺耀眼，但也许更为扎实；还有最终被证明是他们当中最著名、最有影响力的一位——政治理论家赫伯特·马尔库塞。他们的影响力增长得很慢，但在很长一段时间里持续增长，并在60年代达到了惊人的顶峰。促成这一点的因素有很多。其一是整个东欧共产主义国家中马克思主义者内部强有力的修正主义运动，最终在1968年的布拉格之春达到高潮。这使得法兰克福学派第一次与现实中的共产主义世界内部的种种变化，另一个显然相关的现象是马克思主义在西方重新引起了极大的兴趣尤其是在受过教育的年轻人当中，这股潮流同样在1968年达到顶点，那一年整个欧洲和美国的学生暴力活动达到最高峰
021968 与马尔库塞：我不是导师
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violence all over europe and the united states and looked for a moment in paris as if it might even come close to genuine revolution the would-be revolutionaries of that day proclaimed one man more than others as their political mentor and that was marcusa they painted the walls with phrases from his books in order to make it known to the world that they were going to turn his ideas into reality and although the revolution didn't materialize during the decades since then the ideas of marcusa and the frankfurt school have come to dominate some of the social science departments in various countries in europe and through them to have a continued and very important influence on the young professor marcus why should it have been to your writings that the revolutionary student movements of the 1960s and early 70s turned well i was not the mentor of the student activists of the 60s and early 70s what i did is formulate and articulate some ideas and some goals that were in the air at that time that is about it
在巴黎，一度看上去甚至可能接近一场真正的革命。当时那些立志要闹革命的人把一个人奉为他们的政治导师，超过其他任何人，那就是马尔库塞。他们把他书里的句子刷在墙上，为的是让全世界都知道他们要把他的思想变成现实。尽管革命并没有真的发生，但在此后的几十年里马尔库塞和法兰克福学派的思想已经主导了一些社会科学系科遍及欧洲各国，并通过这些院系对年轻人持续产生非常重要的影响。马尔库塞教授，为什么偏偏是您的著作，成了1960年代和70年代初革命学生运动求助的对象呢？嗯，我并不是那场学生运动的导师六十年代和七十年代初的活动家们，我所做的只是把当时弥漫在空气中的一些想法和目标加以整理和表达出来，仅此而已在那些年变得活跃起来的那一代学生，并不需要一个父亲式或祖父式的人物
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the student generation that became active in these years did not need a father figure or a grandfather figure in order to lead them to protest against a society which revealed daily its inequality equality and its general destructiveness they could experience that they saw it before their own eyes as features of the society i only mention the heritage of fascism fascism was militarily defeated the potential for a repetition was still there i would like to mention racism sexism the general insecurity the uh pollution of the environment the degradation of education the degradation of work and so on and so on in other words what exploded in the 60s and early 70s was a blatant contrast between the tremendous available social wealths and its miserable destructive and wasteful use and i think one might add i mean whether one agrees with your view on any or all of these matters or not that the prevailing orthodoxies in philosophy and the colleges and universities throughout the west at this time simply didn't deal
来带领他们去抗议一个每天都在暴露其不平等、以及普遍破坏性的社会他们能亲身体会到，他们亲眼看到这些东西，就是这个社会的特征。我只提一下法西斯主义的遗产法西斯主义在军事上被打败了，但重演的可能性依然存在。我还想提到种族主义、性别歧视、普遍的不安全感、环境污染、教育的退化、劳动的退化，等等等等换句话说，在六十年代和七十年代初爆发出来的，是一种赤裸裸的反差：一方面是社会所拥有的巨大财富，以及对财富那种可悲的、破坏性的、浪费性的使用。我想还可以补充一点——无论人们是否同意您在这些问题上的看法——当时整个西方哲学界、各大院校中占主导地位的正统学说根本就不处理这些问题，不是吗？分析哲学肯定不处理，
03反智主义与新左派的自我批评
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with these questions at all did they certainly analytic philosophy didn't uh positivism didn't and so they did not and we in frankfurt and later in the united states could not cost could not conceive of any authentic philosophy which did not in one way or the other reflect the human condition in its concrete situation the social and political situation and so on and so on and for us philosophy has always been to a great extent social and political philosophy ever since plato of course philosophy has been of enormous importance to you throughout your life in fact you've spent your life as a university teacher lecturer academic writer of books and so on but one of the conspicuous features of the new left movement that you have helped to father is its anti-intellectualism now from the way you've lived your life one wouldn't expect you actually to approve of that on the contrary i combated this anti-intellectualism from the beginning the reason for this anti-intellectualism are in my view the isolation
实证主义也不处理。是的，它们都不处理。而我们在法兰克福、后来在美国，无法设想有哪一种真正的哲学可以不以这样或那样的方式反映人的处境、反映其具体的境况，也就是社会的、政治的境况等等。所以对我们来说，哲学在很大程度上一直都是社会哲学和政治哲学——自柏拉图以来就是如此。当然，哲学对您一生都极其重要，事实上您一生都在做大学教师、讲师、学者、著书立说等等。但您参与催生的新左派运动，一个显著特征就是它的反智主义。从您自己的生活方式来看，人们很难想象您会赞同这一点。恰恰相反，我从一开始就反对这种反智主义。在我看来，这种反智主义的根源在于学生运动与工人阶级的隔绝，以及看上去根本不可能有任何轰动性的政治行动。这逐渐
6:20
of the student movement from the working class and the apparent impossibility of any spectacular political action this led gradually to some kind of well let me say inferiority complex some kind of self-inflicted mesochism which found expression among other things in this contempt for intellectuals because they are only intellectuals and don't achieve anything in reality i must say it's a unique interest to hear uh criticisms of the new left from you of all people while we're on this subject what other important defects do you think that the new left movement has developed as it has gone along well i would mention perhaps as a main defect the unrealistic language and in many cases the totally unrealistic strategy among the new left by no means general but very definitely among the new left the refusal to recognize that we are not in a revolutionary situation in the advanced industrial countries that we are not even in a pre-revolutionary situation and that the strategy has to be adapted to this situation secondly
导致了某种——让我这么说吧——自卑情结，某种自我施加的受虐心理，它的表现之一就是对知识分子的蔑视：说他们不过是知识分子，在现实中什么也做不成。我得说，偏偏从您口中听到对新左派的批评，实在别有一番意味。既然谈到这个话题，您认为新左派运动在发展过程中还产生了哪些重要的缺陷？嗯，我大概会把不切实际的语言、以及在很多情况下完全不切实际的策略列为主要缺陷。这绝不是新左派的普遍情况，但在新左派中确实非常明显——他们拒绝承认，在发达工业国家我们并不处在革命形势之中，我们甚至连前革命形势都算不上，而策略必须适应这一现实。其次，
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among the new left again that does by no means refer to all of the groups among the new left the refusal to re-examine and to develop marxian categories to make a fetish out of marxist theory to treat the marxian concepts as ray e fight objectified categories in order to instead of becoming conscious finally of the fact that these are historical and dialectical concepts which cannot simply be transmitted which has to be which have to be re-examined in accordance with the changes in the society itself i must say it's enormously refreshing to hear these words from your loops i mean it shows that that you are still thinking afresh when people who regard themselves as followers of yours and are young enough to be your grandchildren uh have stopped thinking in some cases but now you've brought us to what was really the uh the guts of of the frankfurt school itself as it started when you started talking about the re-examination of marx's concepts as i said in my introduction to this program it was the
同样是在新左派当中——这也绝不是指新左派的所有派别——他们拒绝重新审视和发展马克思的范畴，把马克思主义理论变成一种拜物教，把马克思的概念当成已经物化、对象化的范畴，而不是最终意识到：这些是历史的、辩证的概念，不能简单地照搬传递，而必须随着社会本身的变化被重新审视。我得说，从您口中听到这番话实在令人耳目一新。这说明您仍在重新思考，而那些自认为是您的追随者、年纪足以做您孙辈的人，有些反倒已经不再思考了。不过您刚才谈到重新审视马克思的概念，这就把我们带到了法兰克福学派起步时真正的核心。正如我在本节目的开场白中所说，正是那种认为马克思主义必须被重新审视和重建的感受，催生了你们这一运动，
04社会主义为何变得像它的敌人
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feeling that marxism had to be re-examined and reconstructed that gave rise to your movement particularly as a result of fascism but fascism wasn't the only thing that precipitated it was it i mean there were other political factors too can you comment on what some of them were i mean you mean some of the factors which demanded a revaluation of marxian cutting yes to me one of the most important ones concerns the concept of socialism itself in the development of marxian theory not in marx himself but in the development of his theory socialism has become the concept has entirely almost entirely been focused on a more rational larger development of the productive forces on another higher productivity of labor on a more rational distribution of the portrait instead of stressing that a socialist society as marx envisaged it at least the younger marx and visitors was a society qualitatively different from all preceding societies now in what way qualitatively different the main point i would say
这尤其是法西斯主义带来的结果。但促成它的并不只有法西斯主义，对吧？还有其他政治因素。您能谈谈其中一些吗？您是说，那些要求重估马克思主义范畴的因素？是的。对我来说，最重要的因素之一涉及社会主义这个概念本身。在马克思主义理论的发展中——不是在马克思本人那里，而是在他的理论的发展中——社会主义这个概念几乎完全被聚焦到生产力更合理、更大规模的发展上，聚焦到更高的劳动生产率上，聚焦到产品更合理的分配上，而不再强调：按照马克思所设想的——至少是青年马克思所设想的——社会主义社会是一个在质上不同于此前一切社会的社会。那么，在什么意义上是质的不同呢？我想主要一点是，在马克思看来，真正的社会主义社会是这样一个社会：
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is from marx a genuine socialist society was a society in which the quality of life was decidedly different from the existing societies meaning in a genuine socialist society labor full-time alienated labor would no longer be the measure of wealth and value in a authentic socialist society men and women could live their life without fear without being compelled to spend their entirely adult existence in alienated performances this image has been obscured and the result was some kind of frightening continuity between the developed and advanced capitalist societies and the image of a socialist society yes socialism began to become like its enemies so to speak exactly i know from your writings that you had other very central criticisms of marxist theory two that i would like to mention partly because they're probably connected in your mind is that you regarded marxism as anti-libertarian or at least insufficiently libertarian as the marxist tradition developed and you also thought that it didn't take
其中的生活质量与现存社会有着决定性的差别。也就是说，在真正的社会主义社会里，劳动，即全职的异化劳动，不再是财富和价值的尺度。在真正的社会主义社会里，男男女女能够生活得没有恐惧，不被迫把整个成年生涯都耗费在异化的活动之中。这一图景被遮蔽了，其结果是，发达的先进资本主义社会与社会主义社会的图景之间出现了某种令人不安的连续性。是的，可以说社会主义开始变得像它的敌人了。正是如此。我从您的著作中知道，您对马克思主义理论还有其他非常核心的批评。我想提其中两点，部分是因为在您心里它们大概是相互关联的：您认为马克思主义是反自由的，或者至少在马克思主义传统的发展中自由的成分很不够；您还认为它没有充分顾及个体。
05被整合的工人阶级与心理学的引入
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sufficient account of the individual now it would be very interesting to hear you comment on those two points marx did not concern himself very much with the individual and he didn't have to because at his time the very existence of the proletariat made this class a potentially revolutionary class now things have changed considerably since you know the question is to what extent can the present working class in the advanced industrial countries still be called a proletariat the western european countries have abandoned this concept all together now what has taken place is a large-scale integration of perhaps the majority of the population into the existing capitalist system the organized working class at least no longer has nothing to lose but its chains but a lot more and this in turn took place not only on a material but also on the psychological basis the consciousness of the dependent population changed it was one of the most striking phenomena to see to what extent the ruling power structure structure
很想听听您对这两点的看法。马克思并没有太多关注个体，他也不需要关注，因为在他那个时代，无产阶级的存在本身就使这个阶级成为一个潜在的革命阶级。而从那时起，情况已经有了很大变化。问题在于，发达工业国家中今天的工人阶级在多大程度上还能被称为无产阶级？西欧国家已经完全放弃了这个概念。如今发生的是，也许是大多数人口被大规模地整合进了现存的资本主义体系。至少有组织的工人阶级失去的已不再只是锁链，而是要多得多的东西。而这反过来不仅发生在物质层面，也发生在心理层面：依附性人口的意识发生了变化。最惊人的现象之一，就是看到统治性的权力结构在多大程度上能够操纵、管理和控制
06马克思与弗洛伊德能否结合
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could manipulate manage and control not only the consciousness but also the subconscious and unconscious of the individuals therefore at my friend said the frankfurt school considered psychology one of the main branches of knowledge that had to be integrated with marxian theory by no means replacing marxian theory but taking it into marxist you yourself have done a lot in your writings to try to marry freudianism and marxism and i think that uh some people would say that this simply can't be done because the two patterns of explanation are incompatible with each other i mean to put it extremely briefly marxist theory locates the ultimate level of explanation of human affairs in technique the theory put very simply is that the level of development of the means of production in a society at any given time determine the formation of classes in that society and that in turn determines the relationships of individuals to each other and on that basis grow up what marxists call the superstructure of ideologies religions
个体的意识，乃至他们的潜意识和无意识。因此，正如我刚才所说，法兰克福学派把心理学视为必须与马克思主义理论相结合的主要知识分支之一——这绝不是要用它取代马克思主义理论，而是把它纳入其中。您本人在著作中花了很大力气，试图把弗洛伊德主义与马克思主义结合起来。我想有些人会说，这根本做不到，因为这两种解释模式彼此并不相容。极其简要地说，马克思主义理论把人类事务最终的解释层次定位在技术上。简单地讲，这个理论认为：一个社会在任何特定时期生产资料的发展水平决定了该社会中阶级的形成，而阶级的形成又决定了个体彼此之间的关系，在此基础上生长出马克思主义者所说的上层建筑——意识形态、宗教、哲学、艺术等等。而按照
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philosophy art and so on now according to freud something entirely different is the ultimate explanation of human behavior the ultimate explanation according to him lies in the repressed uh contents of the unconscious our unconscious wishes fantasies fears feelings and so on uh which are repressed as a result of of distortions in our earliest relationships above all with our parents and he explains not only social behavior but also ideologies art religion and so on in terms of the externalization of the of the repressed contents of the psyche now these are two entirely different kinds of explanation of the same set of phenomena how can you possibly marry the two into a single theory i think they can easily be married and it may well be a very happy marriage i think there are two extremely different interpretations of two different levels of the same whole the same totality the primary drives the unconscious primary drives which for it stipulated namely erotic energy and destructive energy
弗洛伊德的看法，人类行为的最终解释完全是另一回事：在他看来，最终的解释在于被压抑的无意识内容——我们无意识的愿望、幻想、恐惧、情感等等——它们之所以被压抑，是由于我们最早期的关系、尤其是与父母关系中的扭曲。而且他不仅用心理中被压抑内容的外化来解释社会行为，也用它来解释意识形态、艺术、宗教等等。那么，这就是对同一组现象的两种完全不同的解释。您怎么可能把两者结合成一个理论呢？我认为它们很容易结合，而且很可能是一桩非常美满的婚姻。我认为这是对同一个整体、同一个总体的两个不同层次的两种极为不同的解释。那些原初驱力，即弗洛伊德所设定的无意识的原初驱力，也就是爱欲能量和破坏性能量——爱欲与死欲——是在一个特定的、既定的社会框架中发展起来的，而这个框架以这样或那样的方式调节着
16:12
errors and predators develop within a specific given social framework which in one way or the other regulates the manifestation of these primary drives now the social impact goes even further than that according to freud the more intense the repression in a society the more what happened is a mobilization of surplus aggressiveness against this repression now since again according to freud repression is bound to increase with the progress of civilization at the same time and parallel to it aggressive energy surplus aggressiveness is going to be mobilized and is going to be released in other words with the progress of civilization we will have a progress in destructiveness and it seems to me no hypothesis can better explain what happens today than that i think it will the thought will occur the following thought will occur to some people listening to our discussion up to this point you have catalogued a very formidable uh list of defects in marx's theory and prediction the failure to predict the
这些原初驱力的表现。而社会的影响还不止于此：按照弗洛伊德的说法，一个社会中的压抑越强烈，被动员起来反抗这种压抑的过剩攻击性就越多。而同样按照弗洛伊德的说法，压抑必然随着文明的进步而增加，与此同时并与之平行，攻击性能量、过剩的攻击性也会被动员起来并被释放出去。换句话说，随着文明的进步，我们会看到破坏性的同步增长。在我看来，没有哪个假说比这个更能解释今天所发生的事情。我想，听我们讨论到这里的一些人，心里会冒出这样一个念头：您已经列举了一份相当可观的清单，说明马克思理论和预言中的种种缺陷——没能预见到
07缺陷这么多，为何仍是马克思主义者
17:47
future success of capitalism uh the anti-libertarian element in marxism uh the absence of any theory or attitude to the individual you've also talked about other entirely new theories like freudianism which came on the scene after marx and therefore couldn't have been accommodated by marx in his outlook a lot of people will say well since you were so conscious of this enormous range of defects in marxism why did you want to remain marxists i mean why why try to hang on to a discredited or or falsified theory why not try to liberate your thought categories from that altogether and actually look at reality afresh easy answer because i do not believe that the theory as such has been falsified what has happened is that some of the concepts of marxian theory as i said before will have to be re-examined but this is not something from outside board into marxist theory that the something marks the as a historical theory demands now it is relatively easy for me to enumerate to give you a catalog
资本主义后来的成功、马克思主义中反自由的成分、缺乏关于个体的任何理论或态度。您还谈到了像弗洛伊德主义这样在马克思之后才出现、因而不可能被马克思的世界观所容纳的全新理论。很多人会说：既然您如此清楚马克思主义存在这么多缺陷，为什么还想继续做马克思主义者？为什么要死抱着一个已被推翻或证伪的理论不放？为什么不干脆把自己的思想范畴从中彻底解放出来，重新去看现实？答案很简单：因为我并不认为这个理论本身已被证伪。实际发生的是，正如我前面所说，马克思主义理论的某些概念必须被重新审视，但这并不是从外部强加给马克思主义理论的东西，而是马克思主义作为一种历史理论本身所要求的。现在，我可以相当容易地列举出一份清单，说明马克思那些
19:06
of the decisive concepts of marks which have been corroborated in the development of capitalism the concentration of economic power the fusion of economic and political power the increasing intervention of the state into the economy the increasing difficulties in stemming the tangential the decline in the rate of profit the need for engaging in the neo imperialism in order to create markets and possibilities of enlarged accumulation of capital and so on i think this is a former dubai courthouse and uh it speaks a lot for marxian theory well i don't want to get into a political argument i'd love to do that but well the purpose of this program is to elicit your views on on a further range of topics but i can't let what you've said just passed like that i mean to take only the first two of your list um you said that there's been increasing concentration of economic power but surely through the invention of the joint stock company the ownership of capital has been more widely dispersed than ever before you talk about the
决定性的概念在资本主义发展中如何得到了印证：经济权力的集中、经济权力与政治权力的融合、国家对经济干预的加强、阻止利润率趋向下降变得越来越困难、必须卷入新帝国主义以开辟市场、创造扩大资本积累的可能性，等等。我认为这是一份相当可观的清单，它很能说明马克思主义理论的分量。我不想陷入政治争论，虽然我很乐意这么做，但本节目的目的是就更广泛的一系列话题听取您的看法。不过我不能就这样让您刚才的话过去。就拿您清单上的头两项来说，呃，您说经济权力日益集中，但通过股份公司的发明，资本的所有权难道不是比以往任何时候都更加分散了吗？您还谈到
20:25
convergence of economic and political power i would say yes but what has happened in the west at least is that the decisive control over the economy has passed into the hands of elected politicians who in the democracies are directly elected by the mass of the people and they take the basic economic decisions in the society well you know that with your first statement about the joint stock of police you express one of the main concepts of marxist revisionism introduced first by english himself they considered the joint stock companies with a dispersed ownership already as pre-forms of a socialist society now we know today that this is obviously wrong and you will not maintain that for example in the great multinational corporations the stockholders control the policy national and global of these corporations it is not the ownership alone that matters but the control of the productive forces which is decisive as far as the state is concerned and the role of the politicians do you believe
经济权力与政治权力的合流，我承认有这种情况，但至少在西方，实际发生的是对经济的决定性控制权已经转到民选政治家手中，在民主国家里他们是由广大民众直接选举出来的，由他们来做出社会中基本的经济决策。嗯，您关于股份公司的第一点说法，恰恰表达了马克思主义修正主义的一个主要观念，最早是由恩格斯本人提出的。他们把所有权分散的股份公司就已经看作社会主义社会的雏形。而我们今天知道，这显然是错的。您总不会坚持认为，比如在那些巨型跨国公司里，股东们控制着这些公司在国内和全球的政策吧。起决定作用的不只是所有权，而是对生产力的控制。至于国家以及政治家的作用，您真的相信
08研究所群像：霍克海默、阿多诺及被遗忘者
21:40
that the politicians make their decisions entirely by themselves as free individuals or isn't there some kind of link between the policy makers and the great economic powers in the society well the politicians certainly aren't dominated by the great economic powers but anyway i think i will have to let that pass reluctantly and get back to the the frankfurt school we've talked in general terms and i about the frankfurt school uh i i mentioned two or three of the individuals in my opening remarks but i think it would be especially interesting to hear just a word from you about who the main individuals were and what they were like because after all they were your close friends and associates well horkheimer was a director of the institute he was not only a thoroughly trained and knowledgeable philosopher and sociologist but also in a strange sense a financial wizard who could take care very well of the material basis as it were of the institute not only in germany but also afterwards in the united states a
政治家们完全是作为自由的个人自行做出决定的吗？难道政策制定者与社会中巨大的经济力量之间不存在某种联系吗？嗯，政治家们当然不是被巨大的经济力量所支配的。不过无论如何，我想我只好不情愿地就此打住，回到法兰克福学派上来。我们一直在泛泛地谈论法兰克福学派，我在开场白中提到了其中两三个人。但我想，特别有意思的是听您谈一谈主要人物都有谁、他们是什么样的人，毕竟他们是您的密友和同事。嗯，霍克海默是研究所的所长。他不仅是一位训练有素、学识渊博的哲学家和社会学家，而且在某种奇特的意义上还是个理财高手，能够很好地照料研究所的物质基础——不仅在德国，后来在美国也是如此。他是个才华横溢的人。凡是发表在研究所刊物上
22:57
brilliant man and nothing that was written in the periodical lens of the institute and afterwards was written without previous discussions with him and with the other collaborators at the institute adorno a genius i have to call him a genius because i have never seen anyone who was as you already mentioned through equally well at home in philosophy sociology psychology music whatever it may be it was absolutely amazing he when he talked it could be printed without any change it was perfectly ready for print then are those who are unjustly neglected or forgotten leo london the literary critic of the institute franz noeman a brilliant legal philosopher otto kircheimer equally a familiar and legal philosophy frederick pollock and especially henry grossman the most orthodox of all marxist economists i have ever met he predicted as a collapse of capitalism for a very specific year he gave in the meantime it turned out it wasn't quite great like the medieval judgment predicting the enemy exactly yes exactly
以及后来问世的文字，无一不是事先与他、与研究所其他合作者讨论过的。阿多诺——一个天才。我不得不称他为天才，因为我从未见过有谁像您刚才提到的那样，在哲学、社会学、心理学、音乐等等领域都同样得心应手，这实在令人惊叹。他说话的时候，那些话可以一字不改地直接付印，完全就是可以排印的成稿。此外还有那些被不公正地忽视或遗忘的人：研究所的文学批评家列奥·洛文塔尔，杰出的法哲学家弗朗茨·诺伊曼，同样精通法哲学的奥托·基希海默，弗里德里希·波洛克，尤其是亨里克·格罗斯曼——我见过的最正统的马克思主义经济学家。他曾预言资本主义会在某个非常具体的年份崩溃。后来事实证明并不太对，就像中世纪那些预言世界末日的人一样。对，正是如此。还有波洛克，他毕竟写了我认为是第一篇
09异化：概念的复兴与庸俗化
24:34
and uh pollock who after all wrote i think the first article in which he tried to argue that there are no compelling internal reasons why capitalism should collapse now one of the uh things that you all as a group pioneered in the perhaps late twenties and certainly early thirties was the shift of interest in marx's studies back from the works of the mature marx to the works of the earlier marx the things he wrote when he was more directly under the influence of hegel and one of the things one of the many things i think that came out of that which has been of continuing influence ever since is the an interest in the notion of alienation i think alienation in its modern sense was coined by hegel taken up and given a new significance by marx and then almost you can say fell out of western thought for nearly 100 years and you plural were instrumental in bringing it back weren't you it would be very interesting to hear your comments on the importance of this idea well that's a very complicated story
论证资本主义并不存在非崩溃不可的内在必然原因的文章。你们作为一个群体所开创的事情之一，大约是在二十年代末、当然也包括三十年代初，就是把马克思研究的兴趣从成熟时期马克思的著作转回到早期马克思的著作，也就是他还更直接处在黑格尔影响之下时写下的东西。我想，由此产生的许多东西之一——而且此后一直有着持续的影响——就是对异化这一概念的关注。我想，现代意义上的异化这个概念是黑格尔提出的，马克思接过来并赋予了它新的意义，然后可以说它几乎从西方思想中消失了消失了将近一百年，而你们（你们这些人）在把它重新带回来这件事上起了关键作用，对吧，我很想听听你对这个概念之重要性的看法。嗯，这说来非常复杂。在马克思看来，异化是一个社会经济学的
25:42
according to marx alienation was a socio-economic concept and it meant basically this is a very brutal brutal abbreviation that under capitalism men and women could not in their work fulfill their own individual humane faculties and needs that this was due to the capitalist mode of production itself and could only be remedied by radically changing this mode of production now today the concept of alienation has been expanded and extended to such an extent that this original content is almost entirely lost an extension all too easy which i consider not only premature but also wrong because for example and not every kind of trouble or problem someone has with his girlfriend or a boyfriend is necessarily due to the capitalist mode of production in other words you think that the idea has been trivialized trivialized and it uh very needs to be restored yes and that it's in its original significance it is a fundamental importance fundamental yes yes we've talked up to this point in our discussion in rather
概念，它的意思基本上是——这是个极其粗暴的概括——在资本主义下，男男女女无法在自己的劳动中实现他们个人的、属于人的能力和需要，而这是由资本主义生产方式本身造成的，因此只有从根本上改变这种生产方式才能加以纠正。而如今，异化这个概念被扩展、延伸到了这样一种地步，以至于它原本的内涵几乎完全丢失了。这种扩展来得太容易了，我认为它不仅为时过早，而且是错误的。因为，比方说，并不是一个人跟女朋友或男朋友之间的每一种麻烦或问题都必然是资本主义生产方式造成的。换句话说，你认为这个概念被庸俗化了。被庸俗化了，而且它呃，非常需要被恢复。是的，恢复它原本的意义，它具有根本性的重要性。根本性的，是的，是的。到目前为止我们这场讨论谈的多半是否定性的方面，我们谈了法兰克福学派反对什么，我们
10正面贡献：西方文明哪里出错了
27:19
negative terms we've talked about what the frankfurt school was against we've talked about its critique of marxism and at least by implication it's its critique of the capitalist system what was its positive contribution well i would say to start with the easiest one one of its decisive positive contributions was a prediction of fascism long before it actually happened secondly what horcama himself considered as a distinguishing characteristic the interdisciplinary approach to the great social and political problems of the time cutting across the academic division of labor applying sociology psychology philosophy to the understanding and developing of the problems of the time and in my view the most interesting contribution the attempt to answer the question what actually has gone wrong in western civilization that at the very height of a technical progress we see at the same time the opposite as far as human progress is concerned dehumanization brutalization the torture again as normal means of
谈了它对马克思主义的批判，至少也间接谈了它对资本主义制度的批判。那么它正面的贡献是什么呢嗯，我先从最容易说的讲起：它决定性的正面贡献之一，就是在法西斯主义真正到来之前很久就预见到了它。其次，是霍克海默本人视为其鲜明特征的东西，那就是以跨学科的方式来处理当时重大的社会与政治问题，打破学院式的学科分工，运用社会学、心理学、哲学去理解和展开当时的问题。而在我看来，最有意思的贡献，是试图回答这样一个问题：西方文明究竟出了什么问题，为什么在技术进步达到顶峰的同时，我们看到的却是相反的东西——就人的进步而言，是非人化、野蛮化，酷刑重新成为审讯的常规手段，核能被浪费性地开发，
28:52
interrogation the wasteful development of nuclear energy destructiveness everywhere and so on how has this happened and he especially our camera but also the others went back into not only a social but also intellectual history and tried to define the interplay between progressive and repressive categories throughout the intellectual history of the west especially in the enlightenment for example which is usually considered as one of the most progressive phrases in history and the frankfurt school pointed out to what extent this is apparently a perfectly clear progressiveness this liberating tendency was at the same time tied up with regressive and repressive tendencies this picture that you paint of a group of marxists almost obsessed with the question what has gone wrong suggests to me politics of disillusionment i mean there seems to be an aura about it of disappointed hopes disappointment with a marxist theory disappointment perhaps even with the working class itself for failing to be an effective instrument of
到处是破坏性，等等。这一切是怎么发生的。为此，尤其是霍克海默，还有其他人，追溯回去，不仅回到社会史，也回到思想史，试图厘清在整个西方思想史中进步的范畴与压抑的范畴之间的相互作用，比如尤其是在启蒙运动中——启蒙通常被视为历史上最进步的阶段之一，而法兰克福学派指出，这种表面上再清楚不过的进步性，这种解放的倾向，在多大程度上同时又与倒退的、压抑的倾向纠缠在一起。你所描绘的这样一群几乎执着于“究竟哪里出错了”这个问题的马克思主义者，在我看来暗示着一种幻灭的政治。我的意思是，这里似乎笼罩着一种希望落空的气息：对马克思主义理论的失望，也许甚至是对工人阶级本身的失望，因为它没能成为有效的革命工具。在你们当年的路径的核心，是否有某种失望、幻灭或悲观的东西
30:12
revolution was there something disappointed or disillusioned or pessimistic at the center of your approach in those well if a disappointment means as you formulate a disappointment with a working class i would decidedly reject it none of us has a right to blame the working class for what it is doing or what it is not doing so this kind of disappointment certainly not there was indeed another disappointment and that seems to me a very objective attitude i mentioned it before namely that the incredible social worlds that had been assembled in western civilization and mainly as the achievement of capitalism was increasingly used for destroying rather than constructing a a more decent and humane society if you call that disappointment yes but i think it's a very uh justified and objective and you and you saw your central task as being an investigation of the reasons as to why that was exactly right how had it come about so the essential uh um enterprise of the frankfurt school was a critical one definitely
呢？嗯，如果“失望”像你所说的那样意味着对工人阶级的失望，我会断然否认。我们谁都没有资格去责怪工人阶级做了什么或没做什么。所以这一类失望，肯定没有。但确实存在另一种失望，而在我看来那是一种非常客观的态度。我前面提到过，那就是：西方文明所积累起来的、主要作为资本主义成就的那种惊人的社会财富，越来越多地被用于毁灭，而不是用于建设一个更体面、更人道的社会。如果你把这叫做失望，那么是的，但我认为这是非常有理有据、非常客观的。那么你把自己的核心任务看作是去探究为什么会这样的原因？完全正确，去探究它是怎么发生的。所以法兰克福学派根本的事业是批判性的？当然，今天人们就把法兰克福学派的著作称为批判理论。法兰克福学派的成员
11美学：艺术打开被压抑的维度
31:31
the critical theory today for the writings of the frankfurt school one thing that the members of the frankfurt school uh exhibited very considerable concern with from the beginning was aesthetics and this i think differentiates it from most other philosophies certainly from most other political philosophies and you yourself have written a lot in recent years about aesthetic matters why did you and your colleagues always regard aesthetics as so important well i believe and it was a daughter who is to whom i'm closest in this respect i believe that in art literature and music insights and truth are expressed which cannot be communicated in ordinary language let's say impose for brevity's sake and that with these tools images the image of an entirely new dimension is opened which is either repressed or tabooed in a reality namely the image of a human existence and of nature no longer confined within the norms of a repressive reality principle but really striving for their fulfillment and gratification even at the price of death
从一开始就表现出极大关注的一件事，是美学，而我认为这一点使它区别于大多数其他哲学，当然也区别于大多数其他政治哲学。而你自己近些年也写了很多关于美学问题的东西。为什么你和你的同事们始终认为美学如此重要呢？嗯，我相信——在这一点上我最接近的是阿多诺——我相信，在艺术、文学和音乐中表达出来的洞见和真理，是无法用日常语言、简单说就是散文来传达的；并且借助这些手段、这些意象，一个全新维度的图景被打开了，而这个维度在现实中要么被压抑、要么被视为禁忌，那就是这样一种图景：人的存在和自然不再被囚禁在压抑性的现实原则的规范之内，而是真正追求自身的实现和满足，哪怕代价是死亡与灾难。我常这样来说明：艺术与文学的——请允许我用一个糟糕的词——“讯息”
33:07
and catastrophe i try to illustrate it by saying that the match let me use a terrible word the message of art and literature is that actually the world should be experienced so as the lovers of all times experienced it as king lear experienced it as anthony and cleopatra experienced it in other words a rupture with the established reality principle at the same time the invocation of the images of liberation in other words what you're saying now ties up with what you were saying very near the beginning of our discussion about uh your insistence that socialism should be just concerned with a different quality of life and not only with materials and that means that you at least see literature as a repository of new values and you don't just see it as a as a critique of existing society or a revolutionary instrument in the way that many marxist critics literally i would say it is all authentic literature is both it is on the one hand accusation of the existing society but on the other hand and internally
就在于，这世界其实本应被这样去体验：像历代恋人所体验的那样，像李尔王所体验的那样，像安东尼与克莉奥佩特拉所体验的那样。换句话说，是与既定现实原则的决裂，同时又是对解放意象的召唤。换句话说，你现在说的，同你在我们讨论一开始时所说的联系起来了，也就是你坚持认为社会主义应当关心的是一种不同质的生活，而不只是物质。这意味着你至少把文学看作新价值的储藏所，而不像许多马克思主义批评家那样，只把它看作对现存社会的批判或革命的工具。关于文学我要说，它两者都是。一方面它是对现存社会的控诉，但另一方面，并且与之内在地
12妇女解放、精英主义指责与晦涩文风
34:31
linked to it always the images of liberation i certainly do not believe that you can give any adequate explanation of illiteracy work simply in terms of the class struggle or whatever it may be well this is a field in which thinkers in the tradition of the frankfurt school like yourself are now doing fresh and original work what other areas do you think the this school of philosophy this tradition of philosophy is going to have to concern itself within the immediate future well i can in this respect only talk of myself and i would say that far more attention should be paid to the women's liberation movement i see in the women's liberation movement today a very strong radical potential now i would have to give a lecture in order to explain why i do that unfortunately i cannot let me at least try to say it in two sentences all domination and recorded history up today was patriarchal domination so if we should indeed live to see not only a equality of the woman before the law or whatever it
联系在一起的，永远是解放的意象。我当然不认为可以仅仅用阶级斗争之类的东西就对一部文学作品作出任何充分的解释。那么这是一个像你这样身处法兰克福学派传统中的思想家正在做出新颖而原创工作的领域。你认为这一哲学流派、这一哲学传统在不久的将来还必须去关注哪些领域呢？嗯，在这方面我只能谈我自己。我会说，应当给予妇女解放运动远比现在更多的关注。我在今天的妇女解放运动中看到一种非常强大的激进潜能。要解释我为什么这样看，我得作一场演讲，可惜我不能，至少让我试着用两句话说明。迄今为止有记载的历史中，一切统治都是父权统治。所以，如果我们真能活着看到的不只是妇女在法律面前的平等之类，而是所谓
35:58
is but the deployment of what is called the specific feminine qualities throughout the society for example non-violence receptivity tenderness this would indeed be or perhaps could be the beginning of a qualitatively different society the very antithesis to male domination with its violent and brutal character now i'm myself perfectly conscious of the fact that these so-called specific feminine qualities are socially conditioned i'm going to say there are people who would regard it as sexist to say that all right specifically they are i don't care they are socially conditioned but to a great extent they are available they are there so why not use them the way they are regardless of the question that's to their origin i'd like to end our discussion professor marcus by putting to you one or two of the main criticisms that are commonly made of your work i've really put the chief one to you already and that was a long way back in the discussion when i said to you given your awareness of so many things wrong
女性特有的品质在整个社会中的展开，比如非暴力、接纳、温柔，那这确实会是——或者说也许可能是——一个在质上完全不同的社会的开端，是男性统治及其暴力、残酷特征的真正对立面。当然，我本人完全清楚，这些所谓女性特有的品质是社会条件塑造的。我正想说，有人会认为这么说是性别歧视。好吧，它们确实是被社会条件塑造的，这我不在乎。但它们在很大程度上是现成可用的，它们就在那里，那为什么不就照它们现在的样子加以运用呢，不管其起源问题如何。马尔库塞教授，我想在结束我们的讨论时向你提出一两条对你的著作最常见的批评。其实主要的那一条我已经向你提过了，就在讨论很靠前的地方，当时我问你：既然你意识到马克思主义有那么多问题，
37:16
with marxism why do you remain a marxist i won't put that to you again because you've already indicated what your request is i think it's correct yes but but there are others too um for example it's commonly said of the new left movement that has developed to such a large degree out of your work that um that it is elitist that you have these these little groups of for the most part middle class and uh some would say self-admiring intellectuals divorced from the working class as you yourself acknowledged earlier regarding themselves as the instruments of revolution and that the whole thing has become trendy has become fashionable and above all has become dissociated with the real uh working class that it was all supposed originally to be about well the term elitist i would reject entirely i think it is another expression of the self-inflicted mesochism among the new left it isn't an elitism what we have are simply groups which i would like to call catalyst groups which because of the privilege of their
为什么你仍然是个马克思主义者。我不会再问一遍，因为你已经说明了你的看法。我认为那样问是对的。是的，但还有别的批评。比如，人们常说，在很大程度上从你的著作中发展出来的新左派运动是精英主义的：你们有这么一些小团体，成员大多是中产阶级，有人会说是自我欣赏的知识分子，脱离工人阶级——这一点你自己刚才也承认了——却自视为革命的工具；而且整件事已经变得时髦、变得赶潮流，最重要的是已经同它原本所应关心的真正的工人阶级脱节了。嗯，“精英主义”这个说法我完全拒绝。我认为这不过是新左派内部那种自虐倾向的又一种表现。这不是精英主义，我们所拥有的只是一些团体，我更愿意称之为“催化剂团体”，它们由于自身在
38:32
education and training indeed develop intelligence theory as remote from the material process of production that cannot be remedied by any dictum this can be remedied only in the process of change itself now i have never maintained that these catalyst groups could ever replace the working class as a subject and agent of the revolution they are educational groups mainly political but not only political education their main task the development of consciousness trying to counteract the management and control of consciousness by the established power structure and so on but they are certainly not a substitute for the working class itself now as a second point you brought up the language uh to a great extent if i may stop you here professor marcus this was something i said to you before we went on the air to tape this program so let me say it again so that the viewers will know this was something that i was saying in criticism of you when we were talking earlier what i said then and i'll repeat it now
教育和训练上的特权，确实发展出了远离物质生产过程的智识和理论。这一点无法靠任何宣言来纠正，只能在变革的过程本身中纠正。而我从来没有主张过这些催化剂团体能够取代工人阶级成为革命的主体和承担者。它们是教育性的团体，主要是政治教育，但不仅仅是政治教育。它们的主要任务是意识的发展，是设法抵消既定权力结构对意识的经营与控制，等等。但它们绝不是工人阶级本身的替代品。至于你提出的第二点，关于语言，呃，很大程度上……马尔库塞教授，请允许我在这里打断一下。这是我们在录制这个节目、正式开录之前我对你说过的话，那么让我再说一遍，好让观众知道，这是我们先前交谈时我作为批评向你提出的。我当时说的，现在再重复一遍：我认为
39:52
is that uh i think something that may sound like a trivial criticism but is not trivial is that so many of the writings of the frankfurt school are in fact very very difficult to read worse than that they're turgid sometimes unintelligible i exempt and i do it sincerely yours from this uh you're right in love you're right but you're right adorno for example earlier in this discussion you described adorno as a genius now i find some adorno literally unreadable now that seems to me to constitute an enormous barrier between the ideas you were trying to disseminate and the public you were trying to disseminate them to and this is a serious criticism and if anything it's in it it's made greater by the fact that other alternative philosophies are often expanded by writers who are very good writers for example uh in the analytic tradition there's almost there is almost a tradition of white and verve i mean bertrand russell won the nobel prize for literature so incidentally did jean-paul sartre probably the leading exponent of
有一点听上去也许像是无关紧要的批评，但其实并不无关紧要，那就是法兰克福学派的许多著作实在是非常非常难读；更糟的是，它们文字晦涩堆砌，有时根本读不懂。我把你排除在外，而且我是真心的，你写得好，但阿多诺就不一样。你在这次讨论前面把阿多诺形容为天才，可我发现阿多诺有些东西简直无法卒读。在我看来，这在你们试图传播的思想和你们想要传播给的公众之间构成了一道巨大的障碍。这是一个严肃的批评，而且如果说有什么的话，另一个事实使它更突出：其他与之竞争的哲学，往往是由非常出色的作者来阐述的。比如在分析哲学传统中，几乎有一种机智而洒脱的文风传统；伯特兰·罗素得过诺贝尔文学奖，顺带一提，让-保罗·萨特也得过，他大概是存在主义最主要的代表人物。所以当人们读
40:55
existentialism so when one reads existentialism or analytic philosophy well i didn't i deliberately didn't exactly because he doesn't fit things exactly but nevertheless i think it is fair to say that the frankfurt the writings of the frankfurt school as a whole are extraordinarily turgid now why was that why is it well to a great extent to some extent i agree with you and i confess that there are many things and i don't know i don't understand i want at least to say one word about his justification it was that ordinary language ordinary pose even a little sophisticated one has been so much permeated by the establishment by the express so much the controls and the manipulation of the individual by the power structure that already in the language you use you have to indicate the rupture with conformity therefore the attempt to convey this rupture already in the syntax in the grammar in the vocabulary whatever it may be now whether or not that is acceptable i don't know the only thing i would say there's an
存在主义或分析哲学时……嗯，我没有——我是故意没有提海德格尔，正因为他不太符合这个说法，确实如此。但尽管如此，我认为可以公允地说，法兰克福学派的著作整体上异常晦涩堆砌。这是为什么呢，当时为什么，现在又为什么？嗯，在很大程度上——某种程度上我同意你，我也承认，有很多东西我自己也不懂。但我至少想为这种做法的辩护说一句：那就是，日常语言、日常的散文，哪怕是稍微讲究一点的散文，都已经被体制渗透得如此之深，如此充分地表达了权力结构对个人的控制与操纵，以至于你在所使用的语言中就必须显示出与顺从的决裂，因此才会有那种努力：把这种决裂就体现在句法上、语法上、词汇上，等等。至于这是否可以接受，我不知道。我唯一要说的是，把我们今天面临的这些极其复杂的问题过早地通俗化，同样是巨大的危险。
42:22
equally great danger in the premature popularization of the a terribly complex problems we face today we've reached the end of our discussion now professor marcus but to close i would like to put a personal question to you and i do it because you've had an experience in life which must have happened to remarkably few human beings in history you've spent almost a whole lifetime as an academic known uh to a comparatively small circle your pupils the readership of the rather specialized readership of your books and articles and then suddenly when you were literally nearly 70 you became almost overnight one is tempted to say a world figure now this is an astonishing thing to happen to anyone what was it like to have it happen to you well on the one hand i enjoyed it tremendously on the other hand i found it somehow not deserved and i may end of this is the end on a rather impertinent note i know it isn't so important i always said when i was asked how is that possible i said i appear only as such a figure
马尔库塞教授，我们的讨论到此就要结束了，但在结束前我想向你提一个私人性的问题，我之所以问，是因为你有过一种历史上极少有人经历过的人生体验：你几乎一辈子都是一个学者，只为相对小的圈子所知——你的学生，以及你那些相当专门的书和文章的读者——然后突然之间，在你差不多快七十岁的时候，你几乎是一夜之间，可以说，成了一位世界性的人物。这对任何人来说都是件惊人的事，它发生在你身上是什么感觉呢？嗯，一方面我非常享受这件事，另一方面我又觉得这多少有点不该属于我。而我或许可以用一个相当不恭的说法来结束——这就是结尾了——我知道这没那么重要：每当有人问我这怎么可能，我总是说，我说，我之所以显得像这样一个人物，只是因为别人比我还要更蠢。但这是谁也不可能
43:43
because he others are still more stupid than i am but no one could ever have expected it and i suppose you never expected it did you no i certainly didn't well thank you very much professor marcus
预料到的。我想你自己也从没料到过，对吧？没有，我当然没有。那么非常感谢你，马尔库塞教授
视频总结 · 一句话概括与核心要点
一句话概括
1977年马尔库塞在与马吉的对谈中，系统阐述了法兰克福学派为何在法西斯主义兴起、工人阶级被体制整合、弗洛伊德理论出现之后仍坚持"重估而非抛弃"马克思主义，并罕见地公开批评了以他为精神导师的新左派运动。
核心要点
- 法兰克福学派诞生于马克思主义预言的落空：两次大战之间西方资本主义的经济动荡被多数马克思主义者视为体系崩溃，但没有一个西方社会走向共产主义，反而多个国家出现了法西斯主义。1920年代末在法兰克福集结的这群人（霍克海默、阿多诺、马尔库塞等）选择第三条路——既不放弃马克思主义，也不无视现实，而是对其进行严肃再检验；他们在1930年代初离开德国，30年代中期核心成员均定居美国。
- 马尔库塞否认自己是1968学生运动的"导师"：他称自己只是"表述了当时空气中已存在的思想"，那代学生不需要父亲或祖父式的领袖，因为他们每天亲眼目睹社会的不平等与破坏性——法西斯遗产、种族主义、性别歧视、环境污染、教育与劳动的退化。六七十年代爆发的本质是"巨大可用社会财富"与"其悲惨、破坏性、浪费性使用"之间的赤裸对比；而当时西方主流的分析哲学与实证主义对这些问题完全不予处理。
- 他对新左派提出三项尖锐批评：(1) 反智主义——源于学生运动与工人阶级隔绝、无法采取有效政治行动而产生的"自我施加的受虐倾向"，他自始就反对；(2) 不切实际的语言与策略——拒绝承认发达工业国家既非革命形势、甚至不是前革命形势；(3) 把马克思主义教条化为"拜物教"，将历史的、辩证的概念当作物化范畴照搬，而不随社会变化加以重估。
- 社会主义概念本身被"扭曲成了它的敌人"：在马克思之后的理论发展中，社会主义几乎完全聚焦于更高的生产力与更合理的分配，而青年马克思设想的是一个"质上不同"的社会——全时异化劳动不再是财富与价值的尺度，人可以免于恐惧地生活。这一图景被遮蔽后，导致发达资本主义与社会主义形象之间出现"令人恐惧的连续性"。
- 工人阶级已被体制整合，因此心理学必须纳入马克思主义：马克思无需关注个体，因为当时无产阶级的存在本身就构成潜在革命阶级；如今西欧国家已放弃"无产阶级"概念，有组织的工人阶级"失去的不再只是锁链，而是多得多"。更关键的是，统治权力结构能操纵的不仅是意识，还包括潜意识与无意识——这就是法兰克福学派把心理学视为必须整合进马克思主义的主要知识分支的原因。
- 马克思与弗洛伊德可以"幸福联姻"：马吉质疑两者解释层次不兼容（马克思归于生产技术水平，弗洛伊德归于被压抑的无意识）。马尔库塞回应：它们是同一整体的两个不同层次——爱欲与破坏欲这两种原初驱力，总是在特定社会框架内发展。进一步推论：按弗洛伊德，压抑随文明进步而增强，同时动员出"剩余攻击性"，因此文明进步伴随破坏性的进步——他认为没有比这更能解释当今世界的假说。
- 马克思主义并未被"证伪"，多项核心预言已被证实：经济权力集中、经济与政治权力融合、国家对经济干预日增、利润率下降趋势难以遏制、需要新帝国主义开拓市场以扩大资本积累。面对马吉"股份公司使资本所有权空前分散"的反驳，他指出这恰是恩格斯首创的修正主义观点，如今已被证明错误——跨国公司的股东并不控制其政策，决定性的是对生产力的控制而非所有权。
- 学派的正面贡献是三点：(1) 早在法西斯主义实际出现之前就预言了它；(2) 霍克海默倡导的跨学科方法，打破学术分工，综合社会学、心理学、哲学；(3) 最有意思的——追问"西方文明究竟哪里出了错"：技术进步达到顶峰之时，人道却在退步（非人化、酷刑重新成为常规审讯手段、核能的浪费性发展）。他们回溯思想史，尤其揭示启蒙运动的解放倾向如何同时与退步、压迫倾向纠缠在一起。
- 艺术是"无法用日常语言传达的真理"的载体：马尔库塞自认在美学上最接近阿多诺。艺术、文学、音乐开启了一个在现实中被压抑或禁忌的维度——不再受压抑性现实原则约束的人与自然的图景。真正的文学既是对现存社会的控诉，又内在地包含解放的图景；他明确反对仅用阶级斗争解释文学作品。
- 女性解放运动蕴含最强的激进潜能：有史以来一切统治都是父权统治；若"特定女性品质"（非暴力、接纳、温柔）能在全社会展开，可能成为质上不同社会的开端。他坦承这些品质是社会建构的，并预见会被批评为性别歧视，但回应"我不在乎——它们既然存在，为什么不用"。
结论与值得注意的细节
- 对"精英主义"指控的回应：他完全拒绝这一标签，称新左派小团体应叫"催化剂群体"——因教育特权而发展理论，但其任务是政治教育与发展意识，对抗权力结构对意识的管控；他"从未主张这些群体可以取代工人阶级作为革命的主体与能动者"。
- 对晦涩文风的坦承：马吉批评学派著作"生硬、有时不可读"，并对比罗素、萨特均获诺贝尔文学奖。马尔库塞承认阿多诺的东西自己也有很多看不懂，但转述其辩护——日常语言已被体制渗透到如此程度，必须在句法、语法、词汇层面就标示出与从众的断裂；同时他警告"过早通俗化极其复杂的问题"同样危险。
- 对"失望政治"的辨析：他坚决否认对工人阶级失望（"没有人有权指责工人阶级做了或没做什么"），但承认另一种"客观的失望"：资本主义积累的空前社会财富被越来越多地用于破坏而非建设更人道的社会——追究其原因正是学派的核心任务，即"批判理论"。
- 人物速写：霍克海默是研究所所长，兼具学术与"金融奇才"能力，保障了研究所在德美两地的物质基础；阿多诺被称为"天才"，口述即可付印；还有被遗忘的洛文塔尔、诺伊曼、基希海默、波洛克，以及最正统的马克思主义经济学家格罗斯曼——他曾精确预言资本主义崩溃的具体年份，如同中世纪预言末日审判，结果落空；而波洛克则写出了第一篇论证"资本主义没有内在崩溃必然性"的文章。
- 对"异化"概念的警告：该概念由黑格尔创造、马克思赋予社会经济含义（人在资本主义生产方式下无法在劳动中实现自身能力与需要），沉寂近百年后由学派复兴；但如今已被过度扩展到琐碎化——"不是每个人与男女朋友的问题都源于资本主义生产方式"。
- 晚年成名的自嘲：近70岁时一夜之间成为世界人物，他"一方面极为享受，另一方面觉得不配"，并以一句自嘲作结：自己之所以显得突出，"只是因为其他人比我更蠢"。
核心句型 · 9
1. whereas according to the theory X was supposed to …, in not one single … did Y emerge
“Whereas according to the theory this was supposed to lead to communism in not one single such western society did communist regimes emerge”
用 whereas 引出预期与现实的反差，再用「in not one single … did …」否定前置倒装加强语气。适合写「理论预言 vs 事实」的论证开头。
2. What I did is/was + 动词原形 …; that is about it
“What i did is formulate and articulate some ideas and some goals that were in the air at that time that is about it”
用 what-分裂句把自己的作用限定在一个动作上，再以 that is about it 收束，表达「仅此而已」的克制与谦抑。
3. not only …, but also …, ever since …
“Philosophy has always been to a great extent social and political philosophy ever since plato”
用 ever since + 历史起点为观点提供传统背书，暗示对方的立场才是偏离常态的那一方。辩论中好用。
4. I must say it's … to hear X from you of all people
“I must say it's a unique interest to hear criticisms of the new left from you of all people”
of all people 表示「偏偏是你」，配合 I must say 引出出乎意料的评价，是访谈中礼貌而有锋芒的过渡句。
5. We are not in X, we are not even in pre-X, and … has to be adapted to this
“We are not in a revolutionary situation … we are not even in a pre-revolutionary situation and that the strategy has to be adapted to this situation”
层层递减的否定（not … not even …）先清除幻想，再引出「必须适应现实」的结论，用于泼冷水式的清醒判断。
6. It is not X alone that matters but Y which is decisive
“It is not the ownership alone that matters but the control of the productive forces which is decisive”
「不是 X 而是 Y 才关键」的强调结构，用于纠正对方论据的重心。仿写：It is not the data alone that matters but how it is interpreted.
7. to such an extent that … is almost entirely lost
“The concept of alienation has been expanded and extended to such an extent that this original content is almost entirely lost”
to such an extent that 引出程度导致的后果，常用于批评某概念被滥用、稀释。
8. If you call that X, yes, but I think it's a very justified …
“If you call that disappointment yes but i think it's a very justified and objective”
先有条件地接受对方的措辞，再重新定义其性质，是辩论中「接招再转向」的高级回应句式。
9. there is an equally great danger in …
“There's an equally great danger in the premature popularization of the a terribly complex problems we face today”
承认批评后用 equally great danger 指出反向风险，避免把问题简化为单向对错。适合平衡性论述。
生词精讲 · 127 · 按出现顺序
convulsions
/kənˈvʌlʃənz/
n.
0:00
剧烈动荡；（社会、政治的）大震荡
wracked
/rækt/
v.
0:00
（灾难、痛苦）折磨、蹂躏（= racked）
disillusioned
/ˌdɪsɪˈluːʒənd/
adj.
0:00
幻灭的，理想破灭的
credible
/ˈkredəbl/
adj.
0:00
可信的，有说服力的
equally at home in
phr.
1:19
在……领域同样得心应手、游刃有余
revisionist
/rɪˈvɪʒənɪst/
adj./n.
1:19
修正主义的；修正主义者
culminating in
phr.
1:19
以……告终，在……达到顶点
put ... in line with
phr.
1:19
使……与……一致、接轨
would-be
/ˈwʊd bi/
adj.
2:29
想要成为……的；自封的（常含未遂之意）
mentor
/ˈmentɔːr/
n.
2:29
导师，引路人
materialize
/məˈtɪriəlaɪz/
v.
2:29
（预期之事）成为现实，实现
articulate
/ɑːrˈtɪkjuleɪt/
v.
2:29
清楚地表达、阐明
in the air
phr.
2:29
（想法、气氛）弥漫着、酝酿中
father figure
n. phr.
3:41
父亲式人物，精神领袖
destructiveness
/dɪˈstrʌktɪvnəs/
n.
3:41
破坏性
degradation
/ˌdeɡrəˈdeɪʃn/
n.
3:41
退化，堕落；贬低
blatant
/ˈbleɪtnt/
adj.
3:41
公然的，赤裸裸的
prevailing orthodoxies
n. phr.
3:41
占主导地位的正统学说
positivism
/ˈpɑːzətɪvɪzəm/
n.
5:12
实证主义（哲学流派）
conceive of
phr. v.
5:12
设想，想象
conspicuous
/kənˈspɪkjuəs/
adj.
5:12
显眼的，引人注目的
anti-intellectualism
/ˌæntiˌɪntəˈlektʃuəlɪzəm/
n.
5:12
反智主义
combated
/ˈkɑːmbætɪd/
v.
5:12
与……斗争，反对
inferiority complex
n. phr.
6:20
自卑情结（心理学术语）
self-inflicted
/ˌself ɪnˈflɪktɪd/
adj.
6:20
自我施加的，自找的
contempt for
phr.
6:20
对……的蔑视
of all people
phr.
6:20
偏偏是（某人），（强调意外）
defects
/ˈdiːfekts/
n.
6:20
缺陷，弱点
make a fetish out of
phr.
7:48
把……当作拜物对象，盲目崇拜
objectified
/əbˈdʒektɪfaɪd/
adj.
7:48
被物化的，被对象化的
dialectical
/ˌdaɪəˈlektɪkl/
adj.
7:48
辩证的
refreshing
/rɪˈfreʃɪŋ/
adj.
7:48
令人耳目一新的
the guts of
phr.
7:48
……的核心、要害（口语）
precipitated
/prɪˈsɪpɪteɪtɪd/
v.
9:05
促成，加速……的发生
revaluation
/ˌriːvæljuˈeɪʃn/
n.
9:05
重新评价，重估
productive forces
n. phr.
9:05
生产力（马克思主义术语）
qualitatively
/ˈkwɑːlɪteɪtɪvli/
adv.
9:05
在质上，本质上
decidedly
/dɪˈsaɪdɪdli/
adv.
10:31
明确地，显著地
alienated labor
n. phr.
10:31
异化劳动
obscured
/əbˈskjʊrd/
v.
10:31
遮蔽，使模糊
anti-libertarian
/ˌænti ˌlɪbərˈteriən/
adj.
10:31
反自由（意志）的
proletariat
/ˌproʊləˈteriət/
n.
11:59
无产阶级
nothing to lose but its chains
phr.
11:59
失去的只是锁链（《共产党宣言》名句）
integration
/ˌɪntɪˈɡreɪʃn/
n.
11:59
整合，融入
manipulate
/məˈnɪpjuleɪt/
v.
13:30
操纵，操控
marry
/ˈmæri/
v.
13:30
（比喻）把……结合起来
incompatible
/ˌɪnkəmˈpætəbl/
adj.
13:30
不相容的
superstructure
/ˈsuːpərstrʌktʃər/
n.
13:30
上层建筑（马克思主义术语）
repressed
/rɪˈprest/
adj.
14:53
被压抑的（精神分析术语）
externalization
/ɪkˌstɜːrnələˈzeɪʃn/
n.
14:53
外化
psyche
/ˈsaɪki/
n.
14:53
心灵，精神
totality
/toʊˈtæləti/
n.
14:53
总体，整体
stipulated
/ˈstɪpjuleɪtɪd/
v.
14:53
规定，明确设定
surplus aggressiveness
n. phr.
16:12
过剩攻击性（马尔库塞术语）
is bound to
phr.
16:12
必然会，注定会
formidable
/ˈfɔːrmɪdəbl/
adj.
16:12
可观的，令人生畏的
accommodated
/əˈkɑːmədeɪtɪd/
v.
17:47
容纳，包容
hang on to
phr. v.
17:47
死抱着不放
discredited
/dɪsˈkredɪtɪd/
adj.
17:47
名誉扫地的，不再被信任的
falsified
/ˈfɔːlsɪfaɪd/
adj.
17:47
被证伪的（波普尔科学哲学用语）
corroborated
/kəˈrɑːbəreɪtɪd/
v.
19:06
证实，印证
stemming
/ˈstemɪŋ/
v.
19:06
阻止，遏制
rate of profit
n. phr.
19:06
利润率
accumulation of capital
n. phr.
19:06
资本积累
elicit
/ɪˈlɪsɪt/
v.
19:06
引出，探得（观点、反应）
joint stock company
n. phr.
19:06
股份公司
convergence
/kənˈvɜːrdʒəns/
n.
20:25
合流，趋同
dispersed
/dɪˈspɜːrst/
adj.
20:25
分散的
pre-forms
/ˈpriː fɔːrmz/
n.
20:25
雏形，先行形态
reluctantly
/rɪˈlʌktəntli/
adv.
21:40
不情愿地
financial wizard
n. phr.
21:40
理财高手
periodical
/ˌpɪriˈɑːdɪkl/
n.
22:57
期刊
collaborators
/kəˈlæbəreɪtərz/
n.
22:57
合作者
unjustly
/ʌnˈdʒʌstli/
adv.
22:57
不公正地
orthodox
/ˈɔːrθədɑːks/
adj.
22:57
正统的
compelling
/kəmˈpelɪŋ/
adj.
24:34
令人信服的；不可抗拒的
pioneered
/ˌpaɪəˈnɪrd/
v.
24:34
开创，率先做
instrumental in
phr.
24:34
对……起关键作用
coined
/kɔɪnd/
v.
24:34
创造（新词）
remedied
/ˈremədid/
v.
25:42
纠正，补救
premature
/ˌpriːməˈtʃʊr/
adj.
25:42
为时过早的
trivialized
/ˈtrɪviəlaɪzd/
v.
25:42
使庸俗化，使琐碎化
by implication
phr.
27:19
间接地，言下之意
interdisciplinary
/ˌɪntərˈdɪsəplɪneri/
adj.
27:19
跨学科的
cutting across
phr. v.
27:19
打破、超越（界限）
dehumanization
/diːˌhjuːmənaɪˈzeɪʃn/
n.
27:19
非人化
interrogation
/ɪnˌterəˈɡeɪʃn/
n.
28:52
审讯
interplay
/ˈɪntərpleɪ/
n.
28:52
相互作用
tied up with
phr.
28:52
与……纠缠在一起
regressive
/rɪˈɡresɪv/
adj.
28:52
倒退的
aura
/ˈɔːrə/
n.
28:52
气息，氛围
decidedly reject
phr.
30:12
断然拒绝
decent
/ˈdiːsnt/
adj.
30:12
体面的，像样的
aesthetics
/esˈθetɪks/
n.
31:31
美学
for brevity's sake
phr.
31:31
为简洁起见
tabooed
/təˈbuːd/
adj.
31:31
被视为禁忌的
reality principle
n. phr.
31:31
现实原则（弗洛伊德术语）
gratification
/ˌɡrætɪfɪˈkeɪʃn/
n.
31:31
满足
rupture
/ˈrʌptʃər/
n.
33:07
决裂，断裂
invocation
/ˌɪnvəˈkeɪʃn/
n.
33:07
召唤，祈求
repository
/rɪˈpɑːzətɔːri/
n.
33:07
储藏所，宝库
accusation
/ˌækjuˈzeɪʃn/
n.
33:07
控诉，指控
patriarchal
/ˌpeɪtriˈɑːrkl/
adj.
34:31
父权制的
deployment
/dɪˈplɔɪmənt/
n.
35:58
部署，展开运用
receptivity
/ˌriːsepˈtɪvəti/
n.
35:58
接纳性，善于接受
antithesis
/ænˈtɪθəsɪs/
n.
35:58
对立面
socially conditioned
phr.
35:58
由社会条件塑造的
elitist
/ɪˈliːtɪst/
adj.
37:16
精英主义的
self-admiring
/ˌself ədˈmaɪərɪŋ/
adj.
37:16
自我欣赏的
divorced from
phr.
37:16
与……脱节
trendy
/ˈtrendi/
adj.
37:16
时髦的，赶潮流的
catalyst
/ˈkætəlɪst/
n.
37:16
催化剂；促成变化的人或事
dictum
/ˈdɪktəm/
n.
38:32
格言，宣言，权威断言
counteract
/ˌkaʊntərˈækt/
v.
38:32
抵消，对抗
on the air
phr.
38:32
（广播、电视）正在播出/录制中
turgid
/ˈtɜːrdʒɪd/
adj.
39:52
（文风）浮夸晦涩、堆砌的
unintelligible
/ˌʌnɪnˈtelɪdʒəbl/
adj.
39:52
无法理解的
exempt
/ɪɡˈzempt/
v.
39:52
免除，把……排除在外
disseminate
/dɪˈsemɪneɪt/
v.
39:52
传播，散布
verve
/vɜːrv/
n.
39:52
活力，神采（文风的洒脱）
exponent
/ɪkˈspoʊnənt/
n.
39:52
倡导者，代表人物
permeated
/ˈpɜːrmieɪtɪd/
v.
40:55
渗透，弥漫
conformity
/kənˈfɔːrməti/
n.
40:55
顺从，遵从
syntax
/ˈsɪntæks/
n.
40:55
句法
popularization
/ˌpɑːpjələrəˈzeɪʃn/
n.
42:22
通俗化，普及
overnight
/ˌoʊvərˈnaɪt/
adv.
42:22
一夜之间
impertinent
/ɪmˈpɜːrtɪnənt/
adj.
42:22
不恭的，无礼的
理解自测 · 11 题 · 是真懂了，还是以为自己懂
1. 主持人在开场中说，法兰克福学派诞生于马克思主义的什么「预言落空」？
两战之间的经济动荡（1929 年大萧条）被马克思主义者视为理论一直预言的资本主义崩溃，但按理论崩溃应导向共产主义，事实上没有一个西方社会出现共产主义政权，出现的反而是法西斯。开场白指出，一部分人因此放弃马克思主义，另一部分人拒绝质疑理论，而法兰克福学派处于两者之间：仍想做马克思主义者，但认为理论必须经过认真重审才能保有可信度。这一「预言落空」构成整期访谈的问题起点。
2. 马尔库塞如何回应「你是 1960 年代学生运动的导师」这一说法？
他明确否认自己是导师，说自己只是「把当时弥漫在空气中的一些想法和目标加以整理和表达出来，仅此而已」。他认为那一代学生不需要父亲或祖父式的人物来带领他们抗议，因为他们亲眼看到了社会的不平等与破坏性：法西斯遗产、种族主义、性别歧视、环境污染、教育与劳动的退化。他把 60 年代的爆发概括为「巨大的社会财富」与「可悲的、破坏性的、浪费性的使用」之间的赤裸反差（第 2–3 段）。
3. 马尔库塞列举了法兰克福学派哪三项正面贡献？
第一，在法西斯主义真正到来之前很久就预见到了它；第二，霍克海默视为学派鲜明特征的跨学科方法，打破学院式学科分工，把社会学、心理学、哲学一起用于理解当时的问题；第三，也是他认为最有意思的，是试图回答「西方文明究竟出了什么问题」——为什么技术进步达到顶峰时，同时出现非人化、野蛮化、酷刑重新成为审讯手段、核能被浪费性开发。为此他们追溯思想史，尤其揭示启蒙运动的解放倾向如何与压抑倾向纠缠在一起（第 20–21 段）。
4. 马尔库塞提到研究所里哪些「被不公正遗忘」的成员？他们各自的领域是什么？
他列举了文学批评家列奥·洛文塔尔、法哲学家弗朗茨·诺伊曼与奥托·基希海默、经济学家弗里德里希·波洛克，以及「我见过的最正统的马克思主义经济学家」亨里克·格罗斯曼。格罗斯曼曾预言资本主义会在某个具体年份崩溃，结果落空，主持人把这比作中世纪预言世界末日的人。与之相对，波洛克写了第一篇论证资本主义并不存在非崩溃不可的内在必然原因的文章（第 17–18 段）。这一对照本身就展示了学派内部从教条到修正的张力。
5. 马尔库塞为什么说「社会主义开始变得像它的敌人」？他的论证是什么？
他指出，在马克思理论的后续发展中（不是马克思本人），社会主义概念几乎完全被聚焦到生产力发展、更高劳动生产率和更合理分配上，丢失了青年马克思所设想的「质上不同的社会」这一规定。真正的社会主义应是：全职的异化劳动不再是财富和价值的尺度，人可以不在恐惧中、不被迫把整个成年生涯耗费在异化活动中。当这一图景被遮蔽，发达资本主义与社会主义图景之间就出现了「令人不安的连续性」——两者都以生产率和积累为目标，因此主持人总结为「社会主义变得像它的敌人」，马尔库塞表示「正是如此」（第 7–8 段）。
6. 面对「马克思与弗洛伊德的解释模式不相容」的质疑，马尔库塞是如何论证两者可以结合的？
主持人指出马克思把终极解释放在生产技术上，弗洛伊德放在被压抑的无意识上，两者解释同一组现象却路径完全不同。马尔库塞的回答是「层次说」：它们是对同一总体的两个不同层次的解释。弗洛伊德设定的原初驱力（爱欲与死欲）总是在特定社会框架内发展，并由该框架调节其表现方式，因此社会结构与心理结构并不互斥而是嵌套。他进一步推论：按弗洛伊德，文明进步必然增加压抑，压抑越强则被动员的「过剩攻击性」越多，所以文明进步伴随破坏性增长——他认为这最能解释 20 世纪的现实（第 11–12 段）。
7. 主持人问「既然承认这么多缺陷，为何仍是马克思主义者」，马尔库塞的回答包含哪两个层次？
第一层是概念区分：他不认为理论「本身」已被证伪，需要的是重审某些概念，而重审不是外部强加，而是马克思主义作为历史理论自身的要求——这与他前面批评新左派把马克思概念「拜物教化」相呼应。第二层是正面证据：他列出一份在资本主义发展中得到印证的马克思命题清单，包括经济权力集中、经济与政治权力融合、国家干预加强、利润率趋向下降难以遏制、新帝国主义开辟市场以扩大资本积累。他认为这份清单「很能说明马克思主义理论的分量」（第 13–14 段）。
8. 关于股份公司与民选政治家，主持人与马尔库塞的交锋各自依据什么？谁的论证更完整？
主持人认为股份公司使资本所有权空前分散，且西方经济决策权已转到由民众直选的政治家手中，因此「权力集中」和「经济与政治合流」不成立。马尔库塞反驳：第一，把股份公司视为社会主义雏形正是恩格斯本人提出、后被修正主义采纳的观点，如今已被证明错误——跨国公司的股东并不控制其政策，关键不在所有权而在对生产力的控制；第二，他反问政治家是否真的作为自由个人独立决策，与经济巨头之间是否毫无联系。主持人只以「政治家当然不被支配」一句断言后主动放弃争论，因此就这一回合而言马尔库塞的论证更完整，但节目定位是「引出观点」而非辩论（第 14–16 段）。
9. 为什么马尔库塞作为「异化」概念的复兴者，反而要批评它被滥用？这说明他怎样的理论态度？
他强调异化在马克思那里是社会经济学概念：在资本主义生产方式下，人无法在劳动中实现自身的能力与需要，且只有根本改变生产方式才能纠正。如今该概念被扩展到「跟男女朋友的每一种麻烦都归咎于资本主义」的地步，原本内涵几乎丢失，他称这种扩展「为时过早而且错误」。这与他批评新左派把马克思范畴拜物教化、以及批评过早通俗化复杂问题的态度一致：概念既要随历史重审，又不能失去其精确规定。可见他的理论态度是既反教条又反庸俗化的双向警惕（第 19 段，与第 6、31 段呼应）。
10. 主持人认为法兰克福学派的著作「晦涩堆砌」并以罗素、萨特为对照。如果有人反驳说「复杂问题本来就需要复杂语言」，马尔库塞会如何回应？
从第 30–31 段可以推知，马尔库塞的回应会是双面的。一方面他会转述阿多诺的辩护：日常语言已被体制渗透，充分表达着权力结构对个人的操控，因此与顺从的决裂必须体现在句法、语法和词汇本身——这为「复杂问题需要复杂语言」提供了比「问题复杂」更强的理由，即语言形式本身就是政治。另一方面他并不完全接受这一辩护，坦承自己也读不懂阿多诺的许多东西，「是否可以接受，我不知道」。他最终的平衡是：过早通俗化极其复杂的问题同样是巨大危险。所以他既不会为晦涩背书，也不会站到「清晰即正确」一边，而是把两种危险并置。
11. 马尔库塞说催化剂团体「绝非工人阶级的替代品」，同时又承认工人阶级已被整合进资本主义。把这一立场放到今天的社会运动（如气候运动）中，还成立吗？
他的立场包含一种张力：革命主体仍是工人阶级，但该阶级在物质与心理上已不再有「只失去锁链」的动力；知识分子团体只能做意识教育的催化剂，对抗权力结构对意识的操控，而不能取代主体（第 9、27–28 段）。放到今天的气候运动，这一框架部分成立：学生与专业群体确实充当了议题设置与意识唤醒的催化剂，且马尔库塞早已把环境污染列入批判清单（第 3 段）。但困难在于「谁是主体」——气候议题的受害者是跨阶级、跨代际甚至未出生的人，不再对应单一阶级。他自己在第 25–26 段已把妇女解放视为新的激进潜能，说明他愿意在「质上不同的社会」这一目标下扩展主体的范围；因此他可能会承认，坚持「工人阶级唯一主体」需要再次被「历史地、辩证地」重审，这正是他对新左派提出的要求。
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