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点击播放，这里会跟随视频显示当前句的中英字幕。
How to Best Guide Your Life Decisions & Path | Dr. Jordan Peterson
节目发布 2024-12-30 · Andrew Huberman
EDITED TRANSCRIPT · 依据现场录音编译整理，可划线生成便签
话逐字梳一遍，你可以百分之百确定他们真的这么做了，可他们找不到我说过的任何一句话，能为他们的指控提供哪怕一点依据。所以在某种意义上，那是取消文化的一个转折点，因为当时确实有非常猛烈的取消我的尝试，结果人们跑去查我，然后想：咦，他说的东西和他被指控的东西对不上。这算是传统媒体那道堤坝开始崩塌的一部分。所以我被指控的事不仅是谎言，它还是真相的反面，而那是最深一层的谎言。在这件事上，YouTube 帮了我大忙。
休伯曼： 你确实挺过来了。我想说的是，我要谢谢你把那些视频放上 YouTube，谢谢你踏进那场冒险，因为那确实是一段至今还在继续的漫长冒险的开端。你一直在冒健康的风险，为的是理解真理并把它分享出去。我必须说，你从来不是以「我绝对正确、对所有人都适用」的姿态在做这件事，而是在你觉得自己能分享有用知识的地方去分享，而且是在可操作的层面上：真正怎么落地，比如收拾你的房间，比如去做这些事，去发现你的路，走上你的路，把你的目光设定在合适的高度，并且把这件事变成日常的实践、一生反复的实践。这真的很了不起，它显然启发了数以百万计的人，包括我自己。
我还想说，很了不起的是你自己也在继续这么做，并且让人们看得见。你的现场活动当然是一种当下的探索，你在那里提出问题、面对问题，没有事先排练。我也必须说，从你的书、你的播客，到现在事情的走向，尤其是今天你说你希望民主党强起来，我想大多数人会以为你非常右倾，我不打算替你归类，但你有意地邀请并期待一个反对派，让权力受到制衡、让事情走在对的方向上，我觉得这非常美，因为你要的是更多的平衡，而不是让知识和权力更加倾斜。我觉得这是个了不起的榜样。很明显你一直活在边缘附近，为的是激励我们去探索知识、探索古老的教诲，并把它们和我们此刻所处的位置接上。
彼得森： 这件事的回报大得难以置信。我和我妻子之所以一直巡讲，一个原因是我们能见到这么多人，他们把自己的人生重新拼了起来，成千上万的人，这太让人满足了。我们走到哪里，都会有人上来说谢谢。而当我问，具体谢什么？到底什么变了？他们告诉我。世界上没有比这更好的事了：你走遍世界，素不相识的人像朋友一样走上来，告诉你他们的生活因为他们自己的努力、也因为他们和你所做之事的相遇而好得多。如果你可以为任何事祈祷，你想不出比这更好的愿望。所以这很棒，去探索它的延续、观察它的后果，也很迷人。能身处这个位置是一种特权，是一种大到说不出口的特权。能看到像你、像弗里德曼、像克里斯·威廉姆森，还有其他那么多播客主持人在追求同样的愿景，而且做得这么成功，看到它对人们产生的巨大影响，太好了。而我确实相信，这种事以一种深度个人化的方式，对任何愿意追随自己召唤与良知的人都是敞开的。
休伯曼： 谢谢你这番话。我也同意，它是自由地向所有人敞开的，只要人们做自己，并且像你说的那样，跟随自己的好奇心与良知。谢谢你今天来，谢谢你分享你现在所处的位置和你的知识。请一定再来。我真的很享受这场对话。
彼得森： 随时。非常感谢你的邀请。看着你往前走、看着你把神经科学领域那些了不起的发现传播出去，是一件愉快的事。这是一项相当可信的事业，人们需要知道动机的生物学、情绪的生物学。看到你以如此成熟的方式，把这些带给这么多人，很好。这对所有人都是一笔划算的买卖。
休伯曼： 谢谢。这是一件出于热爱的工作，而这份热爱在不小的程度上正是由你、由我的其他播客同行、在你这里还有我的学术同行所激发的。谢谢你，乔丹。
本期讲者
安德鲁·休伯曼斯坦福医学院神经生物学与眼科学教授，研究视觉系统与神经可塑性。2021 年 1 月创办 Huberman Lab 播客，以零成本传播基于科学的健康方案为目标。
乔丹·彼得森加拿大临床心理学家，曾任教于哈佛大学与多伦多大学，早年研究酒精成瘾与反社会行为。著有《12 条法则》与新书《We Who Wrestle with God》，并创办在线教育平台 Peterson Academy。
章节 · 点击跳转视频
0:00
开场：人格、脑回路与本期地图
10:18
从抑制式社会化到整合式社会化
21:17
诸神即动机系统：从多神到一神
29:28
早发型攻击、精神病态与「附身」
44:05
戒瘾四年：换掉一整套激励结构
50:34
超常刺激：色情、加工食品与饱足
1:04:24
远距离作用与亚伯拉罕的冒险召唤
1:27:27
脱靶即罪：注意、元目标与登山宝训
1:43:57
时间尺度、熵减与性的商品化
2:11:07
科学为什么离不开一个故事
2:28:12
召唤与良知：从修好手边的事开始
3:18:34
玩耍、播客与做自愿的傻瓜
本期论点
本期回应
其他论点
9:42
人需要长达二十五年的社会化才能成形，这说明默认的生物学设置不足以让人过好一生
13:13
动机状态不是简单的冲动或驱力，而是各有知觉、认知与情绪的子人格
20:08
两岁时的冲动性若不在四岁前被纠正，孩子会交不到朋友并一生被孤立
28:15
成熟的实质不是延迟满足，而是行动时能把越来越多的因素纳入考量
29:35
精神病态是不成熟延续到了成年：只顾即时满足，既不在乎他人也不在乎未来
47:19
酒精成瘾最可靠的疗法是宗教性的转变，这在成瘾研究中已被知晓六十年
47:53
生活在自然环境里的老鼠不会对可卡因上瘾，必须先把它们单独关进笼子
56:21
精制糖和可卡因一样是把自然低浓度物质提纯的产物，因而同样致病
1:14:25
转变必须以献祭为代价：要超越现在的自己，就得放下过去的自己
1:35:45
在一件事的开端确立尽可能高的目标，会为整段经历定下框架，让其他目标更易实现
1:44:39
没有大量努力作为前置的强烈多巴胺飙升，本身就是危险的
2:11:51
知识不是靠事实堆积建立的，故事才是对事实世界的排序方式
2:13:56
价值中立地追求事实的科学本身可以成为一项邪恶事业，必须被包裹在价值结构里
2:53:51
良知就是神的声音，这是人类理解史上最具革命性的命题之一
3:19:45
暴政的对立面是玩耍
01开场：人格、脑回路与本期地图
0:00
welcome to the huberman Lab podcast where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday [Music] life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and Opthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine my guest today is Dr Jordan Peterson Dr Jordan Peterson is a psychologist an author and one of the most influential public intellectuals of our time today we discuss the human animal what it means to be a human being at the level of psychology ology at the level of Neuroscience and indeed at the level of expression of different personality types within us most of us don't think about having different personalities however as we discuss today due to the activity of specific brain circuitries including the hypothalamus the prefrontal cortex and others we each and all can adopt different states of mind that powerfully influence our emotions our thoughts and our actions and in so doing we are different people depending on those states of mind today's discussion is both an intellectual one and a practical
欢迎收听 Huberman Lab 播客，在这里我们探讨科学以及基于科学的日常生活[音乐]工具。我是 Andrew Huberman，我是斯坦福医学院神经生物学和眼科学教授。今天我的嘉宾是 Jordan Peterson 博士。Jordan Peterson 博士是一位心理学家、作家，也是我们这个时代最具影响力的公共知识分子之一。今天我们要聊的是人这种动物，聊聊从心理学层面、从神经科学层面，乃至从我们内在不同人格类型的表达层面来看，身为人类到底意味着什么。我们大多数人不会想到自己拥有多重人格，但正如我们今天所讨论的，由于特定脑回路的活动，包括下丘脑、前额叶皮层等等，我们每个人都可能进入不同的心理状态，而这些状态会强烈影响我们的情绪、我们的想法和我们的行为。在这个过程中，随着心理状态的不同，我们其实是不同的人。今天的对话既有思想性，也非常
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one you will learn where and how to place your thoughts you will learn the relationship between the Call to Adventure and responsibility and as Dr Peterson emphasizes in his new book we who wrestle with God he emphasizes the use of story in this case biblical stories to understand oneself and to best guide one's actions towards the most positive and generative outcomes we discuss the self romantic relationships and commitments the family community and culture we also discuss the media politics cancel culture things like social media and pornography shifting masculine and feminine roles and the innate human drive to create action at a distance both in space and in time today's discussion is both intellectual and practical Dr Peterson emphasizes how to use different sources of story philosophy Psychology and Neuroscience to understand and best guide one's decision making process indeed he discusses the tight relationship between the Call to Adventure and responsibility as a trustable framework from moving
实用。你会学到该把自己的念头放在哪里、怎么放；你会学到「冒险的召唤」与责任之间的关系；正如 Peterson博士在他的新书《We Who Wrestle with God》中所强调的，他强调运用故事——在这里是圣经故事——来理解自己，并引导自己的行为走向最积极、最有创造力的结果。我们会谈到自我、恋爱关系与承诺、家庭、社群和文化。我们也会谈到媒体、政治、取消文化，比如社交媒体和色情内容，谈到不断变化的男性与女性角色，以及人类与生俱来的那种想要在空间和时间上产生远距离影响的驱动力。今天的对话既有思想性也有实用性。Peterson 博士强调如何运用不同来源的故事、哲学、心理学和神经科学，来理解并最好地指导一个人的决策过程。事实上，他谈到了以下两者之间紧密的关系：“冒险的召唤”以及责任，如何成为一个值得信赖的框架，推动我们在人生中迈向最好的
2:08
forward in life towards One's best possible outcomes and I'm certain that by the end of today's discussion you will be thinking about your own neural circuits that is the connections in your brain that drive emotions thoughts and behavior as well as your psychology your different states of mind and you are going to have a number of different tools and Frameworks with which to apply all that knowledge toward the best possible outcomes before we begin I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford it is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to Consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public in keeping with that theme I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast our first sponsor is David David makes a protein bar unlike any other it has 28 grams of protein only 150 calories and zero grams of sugar that's right 28 gram of protein and 75% of its calories come from protein These Bars
可能结果。我相信，在今天的讨论结束时，你会开始思考自己的神经回路，也就是你大脑中那些驱动情绪、思维和行为的连接，以及你的心理状态，你的各种不同的心理状态。而且你将获得一系列不同的工具和框架，用来把所有这些知识应用到实现最好的结果上。在开始之前，我想强调一下，本播客与我在斯坦福的教学和研究工作是相互独立的。不过，它也是我的一个心愿和努力的一部分，那就是向大众零成本地提供关于科学以及科学相关工具的信息。秉持这个主题，我要感谢今天播客的赞助商。我们的第一个赞助商是 David。David 做的蛋白棒与众不同，它含有 28 克蛋白质，只有 150 卡路里，而且零克糖。没错，28 克蛋白质，而且它 75% 的热量都来自蛋白质。David 的这些蛋白棒味道也非常棒。我最喜欢的口味是巧克力曲奇
3:05
from David also taste amazing my favorite flavor is chocolate chip cookie dough but then again I also like the chocolate fudge flavored one and I also like the cake flavored one basically I like all the flavors they're incredibly delicious for me personally I strive to eat mostly Whole Foods however when I'm in a rush or I'm away from home or I'm just looking for a quick afternoon snack I often find that I'm looking for a high quality protein source with David I'm able to get 28 gam of protein with the calories of a snack which makes it very easy to hit my protein goals of 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight each day and it allows me to do that without taking in excess calories I typically eat a David bar in the early afternoon or even midafternoon if I want to bridge that gap between lunch and dinner I like that it's a little bit sweet so it tastes like a tasty snack but it's also giving me that 28 grams of very high quality protein with just 150 calories if you would like to try David you can
饼干面团味，不过话说回来，我也喜欢巧克力软糖味的那款，还喜欢蛋糕味的那款。基本上我每种口味都喜欢，它们都太好吃了。就我个人而言，我尽量以全食物为主，但当我赶时间、不在家，或者只是想找点下午的快手零食时，我常常发现自己需要一份高质量的蛋白质来源。有了 David，我就能以一份零食的热量摄入 28 克蛋白质，这让我很容易达到每天每磅体重摄入 1 克蛋白质的目标，而且做到这一点的同时不必摄入过多热量，我通常会在下午早些时候，甚至下午中段吃一根 David 蛋白棒，用来填补午餐和晚餐之间的空档。我喜欢它有一点点甜，所以吃起来像是可口的零食，但同时它还能提供 28 克非常优质的蛋白质，而热量只有 150 卡。如果你想试试 David，可以
3:56
go to david.com huberman again the link is davidpro docomo today's episode is also brought To Us by levels levels is a program that lets you see how different foods affect your health by giving you real-time feedback on your diet using a continuous glucose monitor one of the most important factors in both your short and long-term health is your body's ability to manage blood glucose or blood sugar to maintain energy and focus throughout the day you want to keep your blood glucose steady without big spikes or crashes I first started using levels about 3 years ago as a way to understand how different foods impacted my blood glucose levels and it's proven incredibly informative for determining my food choices when I eat specific foods and how I time eating relative to things like my workouts both weight training and cardiovascular training things like running and when to eat before I go to sleep to allow for the most stable blood sugar throughout the night indeed using levels has helped shape my entire schedule so if you're
访问 david.com/huberman，再说一次，链接是 davidprotein.com/huberman。今天这期节目还由 Levels 赞助播出。Levels 是一个项目，它通过连续血糖监测仪为你的饮食提供实时反馈，让你看到不同食物如何影响你的健康。无论是短期还是长期健康，最重要的因素之一就是你的身体管理血糖的能力。要想一整天都保持精力和专注，你需要让血糖保持平稳，而不是大起大落。我大约在三年前开始使用 Levels，目的是了解不同食物对我血糖水平的影响。事实证明，这对于决定我的食物选择极具参考价值——什么时候吃特定的食物，以及如何安排进食与其他事情的时间关系，比如我的训练，包括力量训练和心肺训练，像是跑步；还有睡前该什么时候吃，才能让整夜的血糖最平稳。说真的，使用 Levels 帮助我重新规划了我的整个日程安排。所以如果你有兴趣进一步了解 Levels，
4:53
interested in learning more about levels and trying a CGM yourself you can go to levels. link huberman levels has just launched a new CGM sensor that is smaller and has even better tracking than before right now they're also offering an additional two free months of membership again that's levels. link spelled l i n k/ huberman to try the new sensor and two free months of membership and now for my discussion with Dr Jordan Peterson Dr Jordan Peterson welcome thank you sir delighted to have you here and want to talk about elements within your new book yeah also some elements within your previous books and within that mind of yours generally as a framework for that I'm wondering if you would tolerate or permit a little bit of a discussion about sort of brain and psychology um just kind of lay the groundwork for where we might um prod some of the themes that you bring up related to the book so I view the brain as obviously a bunch of cells and parts Etc but I distill it down to some basic features
并且想自己试试连续血糖监测仪，可以访问 levels.link/huberman。Levels 刚刚推出了一款新的 CGM 传感器，它更小巧，追踪效果也比以前更好。现在他们还额外赠送两个月的会员资格。再说一次，网址是 levels.link，拼写是 l-i-n-k，斜杠 huberman，去试试这款新传感器和两个月的免费会员。现在进入我与乔丹·彼得森博士的对话。乔丹·彼得森博士，欢迎你。谢谢你，先生。非常高兴你能来，我想聊聊你新书里的一些内容，还有你之前那些书里的一些内容，以及你那个脑袋里的想法。作为一个铺垫，我想问你是否愿意，或者能否允许我们先稍微聊一聊大脑和心理学，算是打个基础，这样我们后面才好去探讨你在书里提到的一些主题。我把大脑看作是显而易见的一堆细胞和各种结构等等，但我把它提炼成几个基本特征。首先，我们有自主神经生理机制，我想我们俩都会同意
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first of all we have an autonomic physiology I think we'd both agree on that that regulates our sleepiness and wakefulness our breathing our heart rate stuff that runs in the background and then we have a lot of circuitry devoted to what I would call impulses things that we desire we want to move toward repetitive behaviors and we also have some impulses to avoid things that are putrid painful Etc that's all in there like it is in other we should talk about the idea of impulse in relationship to that characterization okay yeah because there's an important there's an important point to be made on the there you pay a price for characterizing that as impulse and and I'd like to explore that with you because it's crucial great we'll Circle back to impulse I'd like to do that and then we have a lot of circuitry people will hear about it as executive function prefrontal circuitry which does many things but I like to think of um as a circuit that can say and here I'm borrowing from a previous guest who's a
这一点，它调节我们的困倦和清醒、呼吸、心率，这些在后台运行的东西。然后我们有大量神经回路专门负责我所说的冲动——我们渴望的东西，我们想要靠近的东西，重复性的行为，我们也有一些冲动是去回避那些腐臭的、令人痛苦的东西等等。这些都在里面，就像其他——我们应该聊聊“冲动”这个概念和这种描述之间的关系。好的，好，因为有一个很重要的点需要指出，把这些描述成“冲动”是要付出代价的，我想和你一起探讨这个问题，因为这至关重要。很好，我们待会儿回到“冲动”这个话题，我很想聊。然后我们还有大量的神经回路，人们会听到它被称为执行功能，前额叶回路，它做很多事情，但我喜欢把它想成一个能说“嘘”的回路——这里我是借用之前一位嘉宾的说法，他是一位
6:59
neuro surgeon it can say sh or exert what's called top- down suppression on these what I'm calling impulses it can we should talk about that too the suppression idea and the inhibition idea in general great because there's I think there's a parallel problem there to the notion of impulse that's very much worth delving into great yeah so circuitry that's devoted to our ability to self- inhibit the desire to reach for something or to avoid something we can push ourselves into things that would otherwise be aversive we can avoid doing things that would otherwise drive us to quote unquote just do it anyway and then we have what I think of as our default settings kind of how we're operating in the world with respect to food other people ourselves our thoughts if we don't intervene with ourselves and these default settings are of course established by both nature a genetic program that wires up circuitry but also Nur because of the immense neuroplasticity that occurs in the first 25 years plus
神经外科医生——它能喊停，或者对我所说的这些冲动施加所谓的自上而下的抑制，它能……我们也应该聊聊那个，关于压制的概念，以及广义上的抑制概念。很好，因为我觉得那里存在一个和“冲动”这个说法类似的问题，非常值得深入探讨。很好，是的。所以这部分回路专门负责我们自我抑制的能力——抑制去够取某样东西的欲望，或者抑制回避的欲望。我们可以强迫自己去做那些本来会让人反感的事，也可以避免去做那些本来会驱使我们“就是要做”的事。然后我们还有我所谓的默认设置，也就是在我们不加干预的情况下，我们在这个世界上是如何运作的——对待食物、他人、自己、自己的想法。这些默认设置当然既由先天决定，也就是连接神经回路的基因程序，也由后天塑造，因为在生命的头 25 年，尤其是最初那几年，
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of life but especially those first years of life and then of course we have neuroplasticity this incredible gift that humans have more of than any other species as far as we know which is we can decide to make changes now the reason I lay out this framework as opposed to starting with a question is because there are so many amazing questions that you ask in this book you know we who wrestle with God I mean trying to wrap our arms in Minds around this huge set of questions and it occurred to me just step back from all of that and ask is part of the reason that we have a concept of God that there are multiple religions is that the consequence of Some Humans at some point realizing or perhaps God himself realizing that what we are equipped with as humans which we just described is insufficient to allow us to to evolve as a species and be the best version of ourselves I think this for me really is like the central question of at least my life which is to what extent do I need to intervene with my default settings
会发生极其巨大的神经可塑性变化。然后当然还有神经可塑性，这是一份不可思议的礼物，据我们所知，人类拥有的神经可塑性比任何其他物种都多，也就是说我们可以决定做出改变。我之所以先铺陈这个框架而不是直接提问，是因为你在这本书里提出了太多了不起的问题。你知道，《我们与神摔跤》（We Who Wrestle with God），我是说，试图用头脑去把握这一大堆问题。我突然想到，不如从这一切中退一步，问一个问题：我们之所以有“神”这个概念、之所以存在多种宗教，是不是部分因为某些人在某个时刻意识到——或者也许是神自己意识到——我们人类所配备的东西，也就是我们刚才描述的这些，不足以让我们作为一个物种进化，成为最好的自己？我觉得对我来说，这真的是至少我这一生的核心问题：我在多大程度上需要干预我的默认设置，
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rewire them engage that prefrontal cortex and you know push down on some repetitive or aversive behaviors and to what extent can we do that maybe and to what end and to what end and maybe we need a rule book uh you know I I am starting to believe and I'm now 49 years old that we need a rule book that the neural circuitry that's encased within our skulls is not sufficient to allow us to navigate through life our best we kind of know that we need a rule book even you you admitted that in some ways implicitly when you discussed the fact that we have a 25 years socialization window and what that means is that we have to interact with other people and our traditions in order to set us right and that's so complex it takes 25 years and so we're learning something from that and that's indication that our let's say default biological settings are insufficient to guide us into the future right and so then the question is well what is it that you're learning as a consequence of that socialization process and you can think about it and
重新连接它们，调动前额叶皮层，去压制某些重复性或回避性的行为？以及我们在多大程度上能做到这一点？也许吧。以及为了什么目的？为了什么目的。也许我们需要一本规则手册。呃，你知道，我开始相信——我现在 49 岁了——我们需要一本规则手册，我们颅骨里装着的那些神经回路，不足以让我们以最好的状态度过一生。我们其实多少知道我们需要一本规则手册，你刚才在某种意义上也默认了这一点，就是你谈到我们有一个 25 年的社会化窗口期。这意味着我们必须与他人以及我们的传统互动，才能把我们调教好。而这个过程复杂到需要花 25 年，所以我们从中学到了一些东西，这表明我们的——姑且说是默认的生物学设置——不足以引导我们走向未来。对。那么问题就来了：在这个社会化过程中，你到底学到了什么？你可以把它想成——人们也确实这样想过——一系列针对低阶
02从抑制式社会化到整合式社会化
10:18
people have thought about it as a a series of complex inhibitions of lower order motivational States impulses but I'm not very happy with the inhibition model because inhibition is unsophisticated socialization integration is sophisticated socialization so here here's a way of I really learned this I think from contrasting Freud with P because Freud's model super ego is really an inhibition model and Freud was a neurologist P's model was very different he thought of the properly socialized person as someone who had integrated their lower order we'll call them impulses for now into a sustainable voluntary structure that regulated them and gave them all their proper place that's very different than an inhibitory model so for example I'll give you an example from my own life my son was quite an um willful young child wonder where he got it from yeah well fair enough and and my father was you know a formidable character and so my son liked to do what he liked to do and it took him it took quite a bit of tussling with him to help
动机状态、也就是冲动的复杂抑制。但我对这个抑制模型不太满意，因为抑制是一种不成熟的社会化，而整合才是成熟的社会化。所以，我是这样理解的——我觉得我真正弄懂这一点，是通过对比弗洛伊德和皮亚杰，因为弗洛伊德的超我模型本质上是个抑制模型，而弗洛伊德是个神经病学家。皮亚杰的模型则非常不同，他认为一个被恰当社会化的人，是把他们的低阶——我们暂且称之为冲动——整合进了一个可持续的、自愿的结构里，这个结构调节它们，并给予每一个恰当的位置。这和抑制模型非常不一样。举个例子，我举一个我自己生活中的例子。我儿子小时候是个相当固执任性的孩子。真想不出他是随了谁。是啊，说得也对。而且我父亲，你知道，是个很有分量的人物。所以我儿子喜欢做他想做的事，而要帮他做到这一点，我跟他费了不少周折——我不会说那是“抑制”，或者说
11:32
him I wouldn't say inhibit that or regulate to integrate it and one of the consequences of that was he became a very good athlete and so why is that relevant well because it wasn't like he stopped being assertive or even aggressive it's that he learned how to put that aggression in its proper place in relationship to a goal that was much more sophisticated than merely getting his own way moment to moment okay so integration is a better like a a very sophisticated athlete a team athlete in particular isn't not aggressive and they're not inhibiting their aggression on the playing field they may now and then when they're provoked let's say but all things considered what they've done is subordinate their aggression to a higher order goal that enables them to be more successful but also to be successful in a maximally social and sustainable way and PJ's point and he's absolutely right about this is that that's much better conceptualized as integration and then with regard to impulse because I said I would return to
调节从而整合它，而这样做的后果之一就是他成了一名非常优秀的运动员，那么这一点为什么有意义呢？因为这并不是说他不再自信果敢、甚至不再有攻击性了，而是他学会了把那种攻击性放在恰当的位置上，让它服务于一个远比时时刻刻只想着满足自己更复杂精深的目标。好，所以说整合更像是——一个非常高水平的运动员，尤其是团队项目的运动员，并不是没有攻击性的，他们在赛场上也不是在压抑自己的攻击性，当然被激怒的时候偶尔可能会，但是总体来看，他们所做的是把自己的攻击性服从于一个更高层次的目标，这让他们能够更成功，而且是以一种最大程度社会化、可持续的方式取得成功。PJ 的观点——他在这一点上完全正确——就是，把这个理解成整合要好得多。然后关于冲动，因为我说过我会回过头来讲
12:34
that I I spent a lot of time walking through the behavioral literature right and a lot of that was derived from animal experiments and it was predicated on the idea that if you could explain something on the basis of a deterministic reflex you should and there's some there's something to be said for that hypothesis don't make your theory any more complex than it needs to be how far can you get with with a theory of chain reflexes a deterministic theory the behavior has gone a long way they couldn't get to the highest strata of human endeavor with a chained reflex Theory but there was a lot of things they did that were very good but one of the things they made a big mistake about was to conceptualize motivational States let's say as impulses or drives that's not sufficient because it fails to take into account the effect of those States on perception so it's much better to think of a motivated State this is what helped me integrate behavioral Theory with psychoanalytic theory especially the the
这个问题：我花了很多时间梳理行为主义的文献，其中很多都来自动物实验，它建立在这样一个理念上：如果你能用一种决定论式的反射来解释某个现象，那你就应该这么解释，这个假设也确实有它的道理——不要把你的理论搞得比它需要的更复杂。用链式反射理论、用决定论式理论能走多远呢？行为主义走得很远，他们没法靠链式反射理论抵达人类活动的最高层面，但他们做的很多事情都非常出色。不过他们犯的一个大错误，就是把动机状态理解成所谓的冲动或驱力，这是不够的，因为它没有考虑到这些状态对知觉的影响。所以更好的方式是把一个动机状态看作——这正是帮助我把行为主义理论与精神分析理论整合起来的东西，尤其是关于宗教活动的精神分析理论——更好的方式是把
13:37
psychoanalytic theory of religious Endeavor it's much better to think of those lower order motivational States as personalities their subpersonalities they have their perceptions they have their objects of perception they have their uh cognitive rationalizations you certainly see that in addiction let's say they have their emotions like they are small personalities unidimensional very narrow-minded personalities but they're personalities they're not impulses so are they personalities within our what most people would think of as our larger personality I mean what I'm hearing is that let's say somebody's an addict it depends on how integrated you are because you could be nothing but a succession of dominion of subpersonalities that's what a 2-year-old is right and so you have to build an integrating personality on top of those subpersonalities but not in a manner that inhibits them that means your socialization is in unsophisticated even Freud knew this because even though he had basically an inhibitory model of say
那些低层次的动机状态看作人格，是子人格，它们有自己的知觉，有自己的知觉对象，有自己的认知合理化，这一点在成瘾里看得特别清楚，它们有自己的情绪，它们就像是一个个小人格，单一维度的、非常狭隘的人格，但它们是人格，不是冲动。所以它们是存在于我们——大多数人所理解的那个更大的人格之内的人格吗？我听到的意思是，比如说某个人是个瘾君子——这取决于你整合得怎么样，因为你可能完全只是一连串子人格轮流当家作主，两岁小孩就是这样，所以你必须在这些子人格之上建立一个起整合作用的人格，但不能以压抑它们的方式来建立，那意味着你的社会化是不成熟的。就连弗洛伊德也明白这一点，因为尽管他基本上持有一种压抑式的模型，比如超我的调节作用，但他相信
14:44
super ego regulation um he believed that a healthy personality would have the impulse of aggression and the impulse of sexuality to take two major lower order motivational States into account would have them integrated into the functioning ego the the issue is integration and so what you're doing when you're social like okay when when my son for example would become willful in a manner that I regarded as counterproductive for him and the household and and the rule would be you can't act that way because if you act that way people aren't going to approve of you and that's a bad plan so you have to you have to control that because it's not going to work out well for you if you don't okay so I use timeout now timeout is an effective disciplinary strategy for social creatures because we don't like isolation and so timeout basically takes child puts the child in isolation that produces a pain like response because social isolation produces pure inhibition right well well that's the question you see that's the
一个健康的人格会把攻击的冲动和性的冲动——举这两个主要的低层次动机状态为例——考虑进去，会把它们整合进运转中的自我。关键在于整合。所以你在做的当你在进行社会化的时候，比如说，当我儿子表现出一种我认为对他和这个家庭都适得其反的任性时，规矩就是：你不能那样做，因为如果你那样做，别人就不会认可你，那不是个好办法，所以你得控制住，因为如果你那样做，事情对你来说不会有好结果你不会——好的，所以我会用“隔离反省”（timeout）。隔离反省之所以是一种有效的管教策略，是因为对于社会性动物来说，我们不喜欢被孤立。所以隔离反省基本上就是把孩子放到一个孤立的环境里，这会产生一种类似疼痛的反应，因为社会性孤立会产生纯粹的抑制，对吧？嗯，问题就在这儿，你看，这就是
15:51
question he had to inhibit his immediate desire say to run around because he was going to sit on the steps but see the I put a rule in place there and the rule was as soon as you get yourself under control you can leave the stairs okay so now the question is what does under control mean one interpretation is inhibition another interpretation is no no he's developing a superordinate personality probably cortically that has enough Dominion so that those underlying motivational states can now be integrated and placed properly into a hierarchy and when I'm insisting that he regulate his behavior and I allow him to move off the step when he is now able to be a social creature again instead of falling prey to his whim I'm reinforcing the cortical integration of those underlying motivational States now you might think the human organism is comes into the world with with a a Waring battleground of primordial motivational States that's per perfectly reasonable view we know a lot of that is mediated
问题所在。他必须抑制自己当下的欲望，比如说想到处乱跑，因为他得坐在台阶上。但你看，我在那里立了一条规矩，规矩就是：只要你能管住自己，你就可以离开台阶。好，所以现在的问题是，“管住自己”意味着什么？一种解释是抑制；另一种解释是，不不，他是在发展一个更高阶的人格结构，很可能是皮层层面的，它拥有足够的支配力，使得那些底层的动机状态现在能够被整合起来，并被恰当地安置到一个层级结构中。当我坚持要求他调节自己的行为，并且在他重新能够做一个社会性生物、而不是屈从于一时冲动的时候允许他离开台阶，我其实是在强化那些底层动机状态的皮层整合。现在你可能会认为，人这个有机体来到这个世界时带着一片相互交战的原始动机状态的战场——这是个完全合理的看法。我们知道其中很多是由下丘脑介导的，比如杏仁核，还有这些低阶的、在生物学意义上某种程度上
16:56
by the hypothalamus for example the AMD and these lower order biologically what pre-programmed to some degree pre-programmed systems now the specific manner in which those systems should find their expression and the specific way that they're going to be hierarchically integrated is going to depend to a tremendous degree on the particulars of the society at that moment which is why you need that 18-year framework to to hone the manner in which those systems make themselves manifest but the I think the best way to conceptualize that is that it's it's the hierarchical integration of the motivational States within an overarching superordinate personality and that personality is not bound to the moment it takes the medium and long-term into account and it's not self-serving like a 2-year-old would be because you have to take other people into account if you're going to be successful so you and this is where the cortex comes in as far as I'm concerned this is what it's doing it's stretching the it's integrating the
被预先编程好的系统。那么，这些系统究竟应该以何种具体方式表达出来，以及它们将以何种具体方式被层级化地整合起来，会在极大程度上取决于那一时刻社会的具体情况——这也正是为什么你需要那个 18 年的框架，去打磨这些系统显现出来的方式。但我认为，最好的理解方式是：这是把动机状态层级化地整合进一个总揽全局的、更高阶的人格之中，而这个人格不被当下所束缚，它会把中期和长期都考虑进去，也不像两岁小孩那样只顾自己，因为如果你想成功，你就必须把别人也考虑进去。所以，在我看来，这正是皮层发挥作用的地方，这就是它在做的事：它在拓展——它在把那些低阶的、受时间束缚的、纯粹利己的动机状态，整合进一个远为
18:01
lower order temporally Bound motivational states that are specifically self-serving to a much broader vision of the world that takes the future into account and other people and and that's that's hard it's very hard I I love this and I'll tell you why um because the way that I think of the prefrontal cortex is that its main job is context dependent strategy setting right context dependent context dependent that's a crucial issue and you mentioned hypothalamus this you know it's basically the size of you know two uh marbles or so sitting above the roof of our mouth tiny tiny little brain area it's mostly switches in there what do I mean by that anytime a neurosurgeon is stimulated neurons in a little sub area of the hypothalamus you get either Rage or sexual appetite or mating with inanimate objects I mean this was done in both non-human primates and in hum uncontrollable thirst uncontrollable thirst hunger total ression of hunger I mean all the basic drives are operating in they like swies and prefrontal cortex
宏大的世界图景，这个图景把未来和他人都纳入考量。而这很难，非常难。我特别喜欢这一点，我来说说为什么。呃，因为我理解的前额叶皮层，它的主要工作是依情境而定的策略设定。对，依情境而定——依情境而定，这是个关键问题。你提到了下丘脑，你知道它基本上就只有两颗弹珠那么大，位于我们上颚顶部的上方，是个非常非常小的脑区，里面主要是一些开关。我这么说是什么意思呢？只要神经外科医生刺激下丘脑某个小分区里的神经元，你就会得到要么是暴怒，要么是性冲动，或者是与无生命物体交配。我是说，这在非人灵长类和人类身上都做过——无法控制的口渴，无法控制的口渴、饥饿、饥饿感的完全消失。我是说，所有这些基本驱力都在那里运作，它们就像一个个开关。而前额叶皮层可以直接连到下丘
19:04
has direct access to it to the hypo hypothalamus and prefrontal cortex is context dependent learning context dependent decision- making and I love that you brought in this notion of changing an Impulse in the example that you gave in your son's impulse to be aggressive or wild in some way that was inappropriate for the home environment at that moment and two things that you said uh really resonate the prefrontal cortex his prefrontal cortex had to learn that whatever he was feeling for himself his own desires needed to be placed in the context of other people's wishes desires and needs as well so there's an even for him to thrive right it's not merely a sacrifice of his own desire for the sake of others it's like no no look kid if you're we know this if you're if you have the same orientation towards other people at four that you did with you were twoo especially if you're tilted a little in the aggressive Direction you will not make friends and you will be isolated and alienated for the rest of your life
下丘脑，而前额叶皮层负责的是依情境而定的学习、依情境而定的决策。我特别高兴你引入了“改变冲动”这个概念，就在你举的那个例子里，你儿子那种想要具有攻击性、或者以某种方式撒野的冲动，在那个当下并不适合家庭环境，你刚才说的两点真的很让我有共鸣——前额叶皮层，他的前额叶皮层必须学会：无论他自己感受到什么、他自己有什么欲望，都需要被放在他人的意愿、欲望和需求的语境里来看待，所以这对他自己蓬勃发展也是必要的，对吧，这不仅仅是为了别人而牺牲自己的欲望，而是说，不不，孩子，如果你——我们都知道这一点——如果你在四岁时对待他人的方式跟你两岁时一模一样，尤其如果你还稍微偏向攻击性的那一端，你就交不到朋友，你这辈子都会被孤立、被疏远
20:08
so that 2-year-old impulsiveness that has its place two it starts to modify radically at three and it better be fixed by four and the reason for that is that you have to integrate yourself into the social World which means in the case of children it means well you want to have friends and so the reason you're you're you're disciplining your child isn't to teach them that what they're doing is bad you know in that simple in in that simple sense that you might interpret punishment it's like no you need to be more sophisticated well why well you have to be able to take turns well why well because you no one like you otherwise well what's the problem with that well first of all we're hyp social like you can punish Psychopaths by putting them in isolation that's how social human beings are you take the most antisocial human beings there are and you can punish them by making them be alone right so that's how social we are so you want to you you're you're modeling for your child a strategy of of even satisfaction for his
所以两岁时那种冲动性——它在两岁有它的位置——到三岁就开始大幅度改变，而且最好在四岁之前就被纠正过来，原因是你必须把自己整合进社会世界，对孩子来说，这意味着你想要有朋友，所以你管教孩子的原因并不是要教他们说他们做的事是「坏的」——不是你可能理解的那种简单的惩罚意义上的坏——而是说，不，你需要变得更精细一些。为什么？因为你得学会轮流。为什么？因为不然没人会喜欢你。那这有什么问题呢？首先，我们是高度社会性的，你惩罚精神病态者的方式就是把他们单独关起来人类就是这么社会化的，你拿最反社会的人来看，惩罚他们的办法就是让他们独处，对吧，我们就是这么社会性的。所以你是在给孩子示范一种策略——一种连满足他自己基本驱力的方式，都能以最精细的方式把语境考虑进去的
03诸神即动机系统：从多神到一神
21:17
own basic drives that takes context in the most sophisticated possible way into account right and that is see as soon as you understand that that's the fostering of like a meta personality in the child which would really be the personality of that child the integrated personality you start to understand how that might be related to religious thinking because religious thinking is the attempt to formulate something approximating an ideal personality right now that's attributed there that's often attributed elements of the Divine but there's reasons for that that we could go into but as soon as you know that the basic structure even at the lower motivational level is personality well then that that changes the way you view the brain look a lot of archaic deities are motivational systems could you give me an example the God of War Mars that's rage that was a God that the Vikings invoked before they went into battle they would use Ammon muscaria and they imitated Predators right from an early
策略，对吧。而你一旦理解这一点，就会明白这是在培育孩子身上的一种「元人格」而那其实才是那个孩子真正的人格，是整合后的人格。你会开始理解这怎么可能跟宗教思维有关，因为宗教思维就是试图去表述某种近似于理想人格的东西，对吧，而这常常被赋予神性的元素，但这背后是有原因的，我们可以展开讲不过，一旦你知道那个基本结构——哪怕在较低的动机层面上——本身就是人格，那这就改变了你看待大脑的方式。你看，很多远古的神祇其实就是动机系统。能举个例子吗？战神玛尔斯，那就是暴怒。那是维京人出征前会召唤的神，他们会用毒蝇伞（Amanita muscaria），而且他们从很小就开始模仿捕食者。顺便说一句，各位，乙酰胆碱有两大类受体系统
22:21
age this is a aceto Coline by the way folks has two general receptor systems the nicotinic system which is a stimulant but also relaxes you that's that's why people like nicotine um and then the muscarinic system which um creates uh uh changes in our self-perception and perception of the things around us um it's not so much a stimulant as it um it's a I would Veer towards almost like a psychedelic or an it has a a um an effect of making us less fearful and um and intrigued it's a radically atypical psychedelic yeah it's hard to describe hard to describe it's outside the the LSD cybin masculine domain so people would take this this as an agent the Vikings would take this as an agent going into sure because what they were trying to do is make the personality of Rage superordinate with no pain right and they practiced that from a very early age so the Vikings worked themselves up they went berser that means to wear the be shirt right they transformed themselves so to speak into Predators they would narrow the context within
一个是烟碱型系统，它是兴奋剂但同时也让人放松，这就是人们喜欢尼古丁的原因；另一个是毒蕈碱型系统，它会造成我们对自身的感知、以及对周围事物感知的改变，它与其说是兴奋剂，不如说我会把它归到接近致幻剂那一类，它有一种让我们减少恐惧、并且产生好奇的效果，它是一种非常非典型的致幻剂。是的，很难描述，很难描述，它不属于LSD、裸盖菇素、麦司卡林那个范畴。所以人们会把它当作一种药剂来用，维京人出征前会把它当作药剂用，当然，因为他们想做的就是让「暴怒」这个人格占据支配地位，并且不感到疼痛，对吧，而且他们从很小就开始练习这个。所以维京人会把自己激发起来，他们进入「狂战士」状态（berserk），那个词的意思是穿上熊皮衫，对吧，他们把自己可以说是转化成了捕食者。他们会收窄那个语境——在这个语境里，他们的，呃，我称之为冲动
23:27
which their um I'm calling them impulses but you're giving a more sophisticated explanation for them within which their the aggressive impulse the strategically aggressive impulse could be channeled right full rain give full rain right they were experts at that to be able to decapitate people eviscerate people do whatever it was that they needed to do in order to win and and to suppress their own feelings of pain yeah well then you could imagine in a way that what they were doing was bringing the full resources of the cortex to and placing them at the service of the rage circuits in the hypothalamus like we have no idea what that would be like no there aren't we don't do that we have no idea what a human being who does that is like if they're expert at it you uh you it would give you nightmares to think about it deeply there there's an experiment if I may um that might shed some light on what it would look like uh um a former guest on this podcast actually um David Anderson at Caltech has been studying hypothalamic circuits
但你给出了更精细的解释——在这个语境里，他们那种攻击性冲动，那种有战略性的攻击性冲动可以被完全释放出来，对吧，彻底放开。他们非常擅长这个，能够去砍掉别人的头、把人开膛破肚，做任何为了获胜必须做的事，同时压制他们自己的疼痛感受。是啊，那你可以想象，某种意义上他们所做的，是把皮层的全部资源调动起来，去服务于下丘脑里的暴怒回路，我们完全无法想象那是什么感觉。是的，我们不那么做，我们完全不知道一个这样做的人是什么样子，如果他们真的精通此道，你要是深想下去会做噩梦。如果可以的话，有一个实验，也许能给我们一点提示，说明那会是什么样子。这个播客之前的一位嘉宾，加州理工的David Anderson一直在研究下丘脑的回路，他和他以前的博士后Dayu Lin发现了一小撮非常非常小的
24:22
and he and his former postto da Lynn discovered a small tiny tiny collection of neurons in the ventromedial hyp Thalamus that when stimulated would send these animals these mice you can find videos of this online into a rage now the interesting thing is is it required the presence of another mouse right right and right so it's still somewhat context depend somewhat context dependent if they were alone in their cage they wouldn't attack themselves or the walls of the cage but if you put a air or water-filled glove within the cage they would absolutely attack it to try and destroy it then you turn off these neurons the the mouse is Cal we can put link to this in the show note caption now here's what's remarkable the ventromedial hypothalamus has these neurons basically interspersed with other neurons that when stimulated suppress rage and activate copulation incredible right within the same structure you have these mutually exclusive sets of of neurons and behaviors and it and it speaks to I
神经元，位于腹内侧下丘脑，一旦被刺激，就会让这些动物、这些小鼠——你在网上能找到相关视频——陷入暴怒。有意思的是，这需要另一只小鼠在场，对吧对，所以它仍然在某种程度上依赖语境，如果它们单独待在笼子里，它们不会攻击自己或者笼子的墙壁，但如果你在笼子里放一只充气或充水的手套，它们绝对会去攻击它，想把它毁掉。然后你把这些神经元关掉，小鼠就平静下来了，我们可以在节目说明里放个链接接下来更了不起的是：腹内侧下丘脑里，这些神经元基本上是和另一些神经元交错分布的那些神经元被刺激时会抑制暴怒、并激活交配行为。很不可思议吧，在同一个结构里，你有这两组互相排斥的神经元和行为。我觉得这也呼应了弗洛伊德和其他人谈过的一些东西，关于
25:19
think some of the things that uh Freud and and others have talk about in terms of the the juxtaposition of of these neurons but um that they they mutually inhibit one another which lends itself to some really interesting questions about um when those two when uh aggression and sexuality become become combined in in states of pathology okay so but in any event um it so context dependent control over impulses over the hypothalamus seems to be the theme here and the other thing that that you mentioned is the ability for your son in this case but presumably also the Vikings to be able to broaden their temporal scope to be able to think about the time domain differently this is something I'm absolutely obsessed by the more we experience what I brought up at the beginning was that we have this autonomic arousal system the more alert we are the less we are able to take ourselves into um Notions of this two shall pass the past the present and the future it tends autonomic activation stress Panic fear anger tend to make us
这些神经元彼此并置的问题，而且它们相互抑制，这就引出了一些非常有意思的问题：当攻击性和性在病理状态下结合在一起时会发生什么。好总之，看来这里的主题就是：对冲动、对下丘脑的控制是依赖语境的而你提到的另一点是，你儿子——在这个例子里——但大概维京人也一样，能够拓展他们的时间尺度，能够用不同的方式思考时间维度。这是我特别着迷的一件事：我们越是经历——我一开始提到的，我们有这个自主神经唤醒系统——我们越是警觉就越难以进入那种「这一切终将过去」的观念，越难顾及过去、现在和未来。自主神经的激活、压力、恐慌、恐惧、愤怒往往让我们视野变窄，戴上眼罩，看不到
26:22
lose sight we we get blinders on lose sight of the fact that there was a past there's a present and there's a future well that's because they're collapsing they're collapsing your domain of of apprehension to the moment so you will act you have to collapse to the moment to act right and so we should also point out for everyone that the other you don't want to underestimate the sophistication of the hypothalamus and this is partly why conceptualizing its various States as subpersonalities is so useful I mean it's it's not unsophisticated you can take a female cat and take out its whole brain except for the hypothalamus so it's like 990 5% of its brain is gone and in a relatively controlled environment it's indistinguishable from a normal cat it can in it can do cat things and live now it it's h and it's hyper exploratory now that's a that's a very strange thing where is a cat with no brain is hyp exploratory it's not what you'd think at all but it it shows you how sophisticated the hypothalamus is it can
曾经有过去、现在有当下、将来有未来这个事实。那是因为它们在压缩——它们把你理解世界的范围压缩到此刻，因为你要行动，你就必须压缩到此刻才能行动，对吧。我们也该向大家指出，你不要低估下丘脑的精细程度，这也是为什么把它的各种状态概念化为「子人格」如此有用。我是说，它一点也不简陋。你可以拿一只母猫，把它整个大脑都摘除，只留下丘脑，也就是说95%的脑子都没了，而在一个相对受控的环境里，它跟正常猫几乎无法区分，它还能做猫做的事，还能活下去。而且它还变得高度爱探索这就很奇怪了，一只没有大脑的猫竟然高度爱探索，完全不是你会预期的那样但这向你展示了下丘脑有多精细，它能运行这些程序，而这些程序其实是人格的程序，因为它们带有
27:21
run these programs but they're programs of Personality because they have perceptions it can run them and it and it it's and it can do that quite successfully now all the higher order subcortical and cortical systems are well I think they are to your point their ways of expanding the apprehension of those fundamental motivational systems across broader and broader spans of time incorporating more and more people but also solving the problem of the conflict that emerges between those fundamental motivational States right it's like well what do you do when you're hungry and tired right well you have to mediate between the states to some degree what do you do if you want to solve the problem of being hungry and tired of over a long period of time with other people right well you need more and more brain to calculate that right and so a huge part of what maturation is is when we think about it as the capacity to forego gratification actually what's happening is that as you mature and your cortex
知觉。它能运行这些程序，而且运行得相当成功。那么所有更高阶的皮层下和皮层系统呢，我认为——正如你所说——它们是把那些基本动机系统的理解范围，扩展到越来越广的时间跨度，纳入越来越多的人，同时也解决那些基本动机状态之间产生冲突的问题，对吧。比如说，你又饿又累的时候该怎么办？你得在这些状态之间做某种调解。那如果你想解决「在很长一段时间里，和其他人一起处理饥饿和疲劳」这个问题呢？那你就需要越来越多的脑力来计算，对吧。所以，我们通常把成熟理解为「延迟满足的能力」，但其实真正发生的事情是：随着你成熟、你的皮层逐渐上线，你能够在调节自己行为时，把越来越多
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comes online let's say you're able to regulate your behavior with more more and more other things taken into account right right and you know that there has to be some War there which is why you're wrestling with god let's say there has to be some War there because it's also the case that you do have to satiate yourself in relationship to your basic biological needs or you die and so there's going to be tension that is something like the tension between the individual and the group you might say that's how the Russians or the freudians would think about it so the weird thing about that is that it's not useful to to identify your individuality with the Dominion of a whim and that's what hedonists do and that's what immature people do they think well why shouldn't I get what I want it's like I see so your claim is that the you that superordinate is what you want that isn't that means you're subjugated to these low order personalities and you might say well why why is that wrong it's like well you're
其他因素考虑进去，对吧。而你知道，这中间必然有某种争战，这也是为什么你会和上帝角力，比方说。那里必然有某种争战，因为事实也是：你确实必须满足自己基本的生物需求，否则你会死。所以必然会有张力，那种张力有点像个体与群体之间的张力，你可以说，俄国人或者弗洛伊德学派会这么看。而这里奇怪的地方在于把你的个体性等同于「一时兴起的支配」是没有用的，而享乐主义者就是这么干的，不成熟的人也是这么干的，他们想：我凭什么不该得到我想要的？就好像，我懂了，所以你的主张是那个「超然统领」的你就是你想要的东西——可那不是，那意味着你臣服于这些低阶人格。你可能会说，这为什么不对呢？嗯，因为你是个两岁小孩，这行不通。你知道，如果一切都只关乎你和你的即时
04早发型攻击、精神病态与「附身」
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a 2-year-old it doesn't work you know if if it's all about you and your immediate gratification well first of all you're rather Psychopathic because you could think of psychopathy as the extension of immaturity into adulthood that's a pretty good default way of conceptualizing it it's like it's an unsophisticated strategy they want what they want now regardless and they don't care about the the we or the future fure see see one this is one of the ways I caught a to this relationship was I what because I studied antisocial behavior for a very long time psychopaths in particular are notorious for their inability to learn from experience okay so what does that mean it means that if they do something impulsive that causes them trouble in the future the fact of that future trouble has no bearing on their continued Behavior well what that means is that they are so non communitarian that they're willing to even betray their own future selves there's no difference between that betraying someone else it's exactly the
满足，那首先你就相当精神病态了，因为你可以把精神病态理解为不成熟延续到了成年期，这是一个相当好的默认概念化方式。这是一种不精细的策略，他们想要什么就立刻要什么，不管别的，他们不在乎「我们」，也不在乎未来。这也是我注意到这种关联的途径之一，因为我研究反社会行为很长时间了，精神病态者尤其以无法从经验中学习而臭名昭著。好，那这是什么意思？意思是如果他们做了某件冲动的事，将来会给自己惹麻烦，那个未来的麻烦对他们后续的行为完全没有影响。而这意味着他们如此地缺乏共同体意识，以至于愿意背叛自己未来的自我，而这跟背叛别人没有区别，机制完全一样。非常像个幼儿。嗯，说到这个，我在蒙特利尔学到一件事，我和一个人共事过
30:37
same mechanism very much a toddler toddler well so here's something I learned in Montreal I worked with a man named rishard Tromblay there and rishard I think Richard's lab used up one-third of all social science funding for Quebec at one time he was radically successful researcher and he was really interested in antisocial behavior and and was trying to get to the roots and one of the conclusions that our lab Enterprise mve towards was that one observation was that if you take two-year-olds if you take kids at different ages you could imagine you made a group of two-year olds threey olds group of foury olds all the way up to 15 you just let them interact the two-year-olds are the most aggressive and but if you analyze the two-year-olds themselves you find that all the aggressive kids are boys and it's only a fraction of them about 5% so if you group two year olds together 5% of the boys will kick steal hit and bite which was our definition of early onet antisocial Behavior almost all of those kids are
他叫Richard Tremblay，我记得Richard的实验室曾一度用掉了魁北克全部社会科学经费的三分之一，他是个极其成功的研究者，他对反社会行为非常感兴趣，一直试图追溯其根源。我们实验室的研究逐渐得出的结论之一，源自这样一个观察：如果你拿两岁的孩子——如果你把不同年龄的孩子分组，你可以设想你有一组两岁的、一组三岁的、一组四岁的，一直到十五岁，然后让他们自由互动——两岁那组是最有攻击性的。但如果你进一步分析两岁这组本身，你会发现所有有攻击性的孩子都是男孩，而且只占其中一小部分，大约5%。所以如果你把一群两岁孩子放在一起，5%的男孩会踢人、抢东西、打人和咬人，这就是我们对「早发型反社会行为」的定义。这些孩子里绝大多数
31:45
socialized by the age of four right the remnant that aren't get alienated because they have no friends and they're the ones who become juvenile delinquents and then early onset criminals and then repeat of offenders right and so what it is is imagine there's some kids whose default their rage circuits are a little bit more dominant than the typical kid they're often bigger physically yeah especially the bite the biting I uh forgive me for interrupting but there's a very interesting paper published about two years ago showing that there's a specific circuit from the hypothalamus to the neurons that control uh jaw closure that are independent of the neurons that control jaw jaw closure for eating and for drinking that are specifically for aggressive biting I mean I hope people understand the significance of this because what this means is there are dedicated circuits for aggressive biting in your hypothalamus we all learn to suppress these except probably under conditions where our life is endangered in which
到四岁时都完成了社会化，对吧。剩下那些没完成的会被疏远，因为他们没有朋友，而他们就是后来变成少年犯、继而成为早发型罪犯、再成为累犯的那批人，对吧。所以这件事其实是：想象有些孩子，他们默认状态下的暴怒回路比典型孩子更占主导他们往往体格也更大。是啊，尤其是咬人这件事——请原谅我打断一下——大约两年前发表了一篇非常有意思的论文，显示存在一条特定的回路，从下丘脑通到控制闭颌的神经元，而这些神经元独立于控制进食和饮水时闭颌的那些神经元，它们专门负责攻击性咬合。我希望大家能理解这件事的重要性，因为这意味着，你的下丘脑里有专门负责攻击性咬合的回路。我们所有人都学会了压制它们，大概除了在生命受到威胁的情况下——那时候你大概会拼命咬，好让自己脱身。但我们所有人生来就带着
32:43
case you'd probably bite like hell in order to try and get out of that circumstance but we are all born with this circuit we die with this circuit most of us apparently not these kids learn to suppress the circuit right right or integr an 8-year-old B is a scary thing a one-year-old biter is like a a little bit of a worrisome thing a 2-year-old like okay we need to work on this an 8-year-old berer people are starting to be concerned I think even without knowledge of the Psychopathology literature one would be very concerned if their eight-year-old is biting other kids not just because of the damage induced but it's so very different and so much more primitive than than even hitting or spitting or something exactly it's it's the indication of a virtual absence of sophisticated socialization they are truly in their hypothalamus yeah yeah right exactly and that's well especially if you have a hypothalamus that's tilted towards rage let's say and and defensive or predatory aggression that's bad news now so
这条回路，死的时候也还带着这条回路。大多数人是这样，但显然这些孩子没有学会压制这条回路，对吧或者说没有整合它。一个八岁的孩子咬人是很可怕的事。一岁的孩子咬人有点让人担心，两岁的话，好吧，我们得在这方面下点功夫，到了八岁还咬人，大家就开始担心了。我想，即使不了解精神病理学文献，任何人看到自家八岁孩子咬别的孩子都会非常担心，不只是因为造成的伤害，而是因为它太不一样了，比动手打人或吐口水要原始得多。没错这表明精细的社会化几乎完全缺失，他们真的还停留在下丘脑里是啊，正是如此。而且，尤其如果你的下丘脑本来就偏向暴怒，偏向防御性或掠食性攻击，那就是坏消息了。那么这一切的结论是什么呢？结论就是
33:43
so so so what's the what's the upshot of that well the upshot is that there is a sub that's right there's a subset of kids whose whose default reactions aren't socialized and we associate that with psychopathy and long-term criminality there's a really useful thing to understand that much of what we see as pathology and I would say the same thing about narcissism and and and certain forms of Hedonism essentially what it is is failure of socialization right and this has very interesting political implications because it also implies that imagine that impulsive self-gratification is a personality the desire for impulsive self-gratification is a personality with its own political opinions nche said in the late 1800s that every Drive attempts to philosophies in its Spirit brilliant a brilliant observation far different than conceiving of the say hypothalamic drives as deterministic chains of only impulses and another thing to consider too with regards to the effect of hypothalamic motivation on perception
没错，确实存在一小部分孩子，他们的默认反应没有被社会化，而我们把这跟精神病态和长期犯罪联系在一起。有一点非常值得理解：我们所看到的很多病理现象——我认为自恋以及某些形式的享乐主义也一样——本质上其实就是社会化的失败，对吧。而这有非常有趣的政治含义，因为它还意味着——想象一下冲动式的自我满足本身就是一个人格，那种追求冲动式自我满足的欲望本身就是一个人格，带着它自己的政治观点。尼采在19世纪末说过，每一种驱力都试图以自己的精神来构建哲学。绝妙这是个绝妙的洞见，跟把下丘脑驱力仅仅设想成一串决定论式的冲动链条截然不同。还有另一件值得考虑的事，关于下丘脑动机对知觉的影响——你刚才说的那只小鼠
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that mouse that you talked about who's attack system is activated electronically see when that glove is dropped you can see that there's a relationship with perception because if there's no target for attack that's biologically relevant in the environment there's no impulse so you could imagine that what happens is when you activate those neurons is that there's a set of perceptual stimuli that are much more likely to be classified as a defeatable enemy now even a glove will do it right right so you drop in a glove and that's now per ceed as defeatable enemy or perhaps threat because we don't know exactly what the perception would be but then you see then it's the perception driving the behavior that's not an Impulse right right that's more like a strategy and that's it's un I really started to understand some of the literature on the evolution of religious thinking when I started to understand motivational States as personalities because one of the things that you see this is so cool something I tried to
攻击系统是通过电子方式激活的，你看当那只手套被丢进去的时候，你可以看出这跟感知是有关系的，因为如果环境中没有生物学上相关的攻击目标，就不会产生冲动。所以你可以想象事情是这样的：当你激活那些神经元时，就会有一组感知刺激变得更有可能被归类为可以被击败的敌人，现在连一只手套都能起作用，对吧对，所以你丢进一只手套，它现在就被感知成可击败的敌人，或者也许是威胁，因为我们并不确切知道那种感知到底是什么样的，但接着你就会看到，是感知在驱动行为，那就不是冲动了，对吧对，那更像是一种策略。这个真的……我开始理解一些关于宗教思维演化的文献，是在我开始把动机状态理解为人格的时候，因为你会看到的其中一件事是这个太酷了，我曾经试着跟道金斯聊过这个——有史以来最伟大的宗教史学家
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talk to Dawkins about the the greatest historian of religions who ever lived was mer eliad and he wrote a sequence of brilliant books um the sacred and the profane is the best one to start with very short book very elegant book and what ilad documented across the world was the pattern by which polytheistic belief systems turned into monotheistic belief systems that parallels maturation it's the same thing and so the polytheistic Gods tend to be rep representations of of motivational States I I I'm going to pause you there because I think this is extremely important um so the god of war or the god of love the goddess of love or the god of love exactly exactly that um so the idea that the different gods are the uh reflective of different let's just let's just we'll just say it as as neuroscientists as different hypothalamic and and related circuits well why wouldn't they be Gods you know beware of falling under their minion beware of becoming their play things and the other thing that's very interesting
是米尔恰·伊利亚德，他写了一系列精彩的书，嗯，《神圣与世俗》是最适合入门的一本，非常短的一本书，非常优雅的一本书。伊利亚德在全世界范围内记录下来的，是多神论信仰体系转变为一神论信仰体系的模式，而这跟人的成熟过程是平行的，是同一回事。所以那些多神教的神祇往往是动机状态的表征——我，我要在这里打断你一下，因为我觉得这极其重要，嗯，所以战神，或者爱神，爱之女神或者爱之男神——完全正确，完全正确对，嗯，所以这个想法是，不同的神祇是不同的……我们就这么说吧，我们就直接说作为神经科学家，面对不同的下丘脑及相关回路，你会想，为什么它们不能是神明呢，你懂吧小心别沦为它们的爪牙，小心别成为它们的玩物，还有另一件非常有意思的事
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you see is that you have to also understand that these don't exist independently of historical context so let's say rage it's like there's a there's a there's a literature of Rage there's a culture of Rage there are patterns of Rage that are played out in drama and literature like it's not only that the motivational impulse is a personality it's a personality with a history and a philosophy and if you don't think think it can possess you you don't know very much about possession so like for example if you're fighting with someone and you and you become enraged as you said your temporal purview shrinks and your notion of what constitutes Victory is radically transfigured so if you're fighting with someone you love you might want to defeat them or even hurt them independently of the fact that you actually love them well then you think well you're you're gripped by these impulses no no you're inhabited by the spirit of Rage and if you're a sophisticated person there's going to be an endless stream of
你看，你还得明白，这些东西并不是脱离历史语境而独立存在的，比如说愤怒，就好像有关于愤怒的文献，有愤怒的文化，有愤怒的种种模式，它们在戏剧和文学中不断上演不只是那种动机冲动本身是一个人格，它是一个带着历史和哲学的人格如果你觉得它不可能附身于你，那你对「附身」这回事了解得太少了比如说，如果你在和某人争吵，然后你被激怒了，就像你说的，你的时间视野会收窄，而你对「什么算胜利」的理解会被彻底改写，所以如果你是在和你爱的人争吵，你可能会想击败对方，甚至伤害对方，完全不顾你其实是爱他们的这个事实，那你会想，好吧，你是被这些冲动攫住了，不不，你是被愤怒之灵所栖居，而如果你是个有学识的人，那接踵而来的会是
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sophisticated intellectual rationalizations that come along with that possession right it's full-fledged personality and it's one of the things you see with people who are psychotic you know who drift off into the landscape of their imagination is that they dwell on such states of possession so for example these kids that shoot up High School like they're fantasizing under the influence of rage and resentment for thousands of hours that just takes control of them and it's not it's not a simple impulse it's like no they've they've inverted the you could think they've inverted the neurological order and the god of rage is now the what would you say the leading personality of integration or the god of resentful rage even worse and the circuit May R run in reverse my colleague David Spiegel at who's our uh Vice chair of Psychiatry at Stanford has done some beautiful experiments examining the relationship between uh prefrontal cortical areas and the insula a brain area that has a map of our internal body State interoception
源源不断的、精致的理智化辩解，伴随着那种附身状态，对吧，它是一个完整成型的人格这也是你在精神病性状态的人身上会看到的现象之一，那些人飘进了自己想象的景观里，他们会长久沉溺于这种被附身的状态，比如那些在高中里开枪扫射的孩子他们在愤怒和怨恨的驱使下幻想了成千上万个小时，那东西就这样控制了他们，这不是一个简单的冲动，不是，他们已经颠倒了，你可以认为他们颠倒了神经层级的秩序愤怒之神现在就成了——你会怎么说——整合后的主导人格，或者说怨恨性愤怒之神甚至更糟，而且这个回路可能会反向运行。我在斯坦福的同事 David Spiegel，他是我们精神科的副主任，做过一些非常漂亮的实验，研究了前额叶皮层区域和脑岛之间的关系。脑岛这个脑区有一张我们内部身体状态的地图，也就是内感受，你知道的，我们感知自己内部运作的能力等等。总之，在某些情况下，包括抑郁症，前额叶皮层和脑岛之间的
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you know our ability to sense our internal workings Etc in any event there are certain conditions including depression where the direction of flow between the prefrontal cortex and the insula literally reverses it's like running against the typical traffic this is a very different example because here you're presenting in the context of Rage or and sociopathy and and these kids who um shoot up schools but I do absolutely subscribe to what you just said that if one drops into one of these more primitive States and emotions and all the things that go with it for a very long time it's almost as if um the governor which is the prefrontal cortex starts to become the Govern that the whole circuit starts to run from bottom up as opposed to top down yeah yeah defin and I think there's good neurological that's what happens in addiction mhm right so you hit you hit that circuit that's seeking the drug with repeated doses of dopamine you know people say they have a monkey on their back it's like no they have a monster in
信息流动方向会真的发生反转，就像逆着正常的车流方向走一样。这是一个很不一样的例子，因为你这里讲的是在暴怒或者反社会人格的背景下，还有那些在学校开枪的孩子。但我完全认同你刚才说的：如果一个人长时间陷入这些比较原始的状态和情绪，以及随之而来的一切，那几乎就像是——那个管理者，也就是前额叶皮层，开始变成被管理的一方，整个回路开始自下而上地运行，而不是自上而下是啊，没错。我认为有很好的神经学证据表明成瘾就是这样发生的对吧？你不断用多巴胺刺激那个寻求毒品的回路人们常说自己背上有只猴子（甩不掉的瘾），其实不是，他们脑子里是有一只
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their brain and it's and they grew it and it grows because it's reinforced with dopaminergic hits and as it grows its capacity to dominate increases and so when there's a cue for the addiction this is why people relapse when they get out of a treatment center they'll go back to their normal environment after having dealt with the physiological withdrawal let's say and acute craving will make itself manifest like a friend they Freebase with and it's all of a sudden that monster is alive and it just shuts everything else down and it's got a personality it can lie you know one of the Hallmarks of adictive behavior is lying and the lies are the rationalizations of that subcircuit subpersonality for its own pathological behavior and so and that's all reinforced too by the dope and energic hits it's like there's multiple people in there in in everyone one of the most incredible polytheistic paganism polytheistic yeah that's the default condition right right that's the condition of the 2-year-old I'd like to take a quick
怪兽，而且是他们自己养大的。它会长大，因为它不断被多巴胺的刺激强化随着它长大，它支配一切的能力也在增强。所以当出现和成瘾相关的线索时——这就是为什么人们会复吸——当他们从戒断中心出来，处理完生理上的戒断反应之后，回到原来的环境，急性的渴求就会显现出来，比如碰到一个以前一起吸毒的朋友，然后突然间那只怪兽就活过来了，它会把其他一切都关掉。而且它有自己的人格，它会撒谎。成瘾行为的一个标志就是撒谎，而这些谎言就是那个子回路、那个子人格为自己的病态行为找的合理化借口。这一切又被多巴胺的刺激进一步强化。就好像每个人体内都住着好几个人。这是最不可思议的多神论式的异教信仰。多神论，是啊，那是默认状态。没错，那就是两岁小孩的状态。我想先插播一下，感谢我们的赞助商 AG1。AG1 是一款集维生素、矿物质、益生菌于一体的
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break and thank our sponsor ag1 ag1 is an all-in-one vitamin mineral probiotic drink with adaptogens I've been taking ag1 daily since 2012 so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring this podcast the reason I started taking ag1 and the reason I still take ag1 is because it is the highest quality and most complete foundational nutritional supplement what that means is that ag1 ensures that you're getting all the necessary vitamins minerals and other micronutrients to form a strong foundation for your daily Health ag1 also has probiotics and prebiotics that support a healthy gut microbiome your gut microbiome consists of trillions of microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune system status your metabolic Health your hormone health and much more so I've consistently found that when I take ag1 daily my digestion is improved my immune system is more robust and my mood and mental focus are at their best in fact if I could take Just One supplement that supplement would be ag1
饮品，还含有适应原成分。我从 2012 年起就每天喝 AG1，所以很高兴他们能赞助这档播客。我当初开始喝 AG1、到现在还在喝的原因，是它是品质最高、最全面的基础营养补充剂。这意味着 AG1 能确保你摄入所有必需的维生素、矿物质和其他微量营养素，为你的日常健康打下坚实的基础。AG1 还含有益生菌和益生元，支持健康的肠道菌群。你的肠道菌群由数以万亿计的微生物组成，它们分布在消化道内壁，影响着诸如免疫系统状态、代谢健康、激素健康等等方面。所以我一直发现，当我每天喝 AG1 时，我的消化会改善，免疫系统更强健，情绪和专注力也处于最佳状态。事实上，如果我只能吃一种补充剂，那就会是 AG1。如果你想试试 AG1，可以访问
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05戒瘾四年：换掉一整套激励结构
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witnessed of the power of belief in God I'm just going to say it as as it occurred uh I have a good friend um who for many years struggled with alcohol and drug addiction of multiple kinds incredibly kind person incredibly successful in his career married two beautiful children multiple relapses yeah crashed his truck at 7 in the morning after getting intoxicated at 6:30 in the morning got out of that one happened again and again multiple rehab centers of the sort of standard treatment Etc and then ultimately enough happened within that whole set of circumstances that his wife said you know this is it you've got to solve this or we just can't be with you very scary situation for everybody involved including him who absolutely adored his family he told us uh his friends that he was going to go to a a a center here in Los Angeles that treats addiction with essentially religion a belief in God he was already fairly religious um most most Sundays he attended church and things of that sort and you can imagine
呃，我有个好朋友，他多年来一直挣扎于酒精和多种药物成瘾，人非常善良，事业也非常成功，已婚，有两个漂亮的孩子，但多次复发。是啊，他早上六点半喝醉，七点就把自己的皮卡撞了。那次算是躲过去了，可后来又一次次发生。去过多家戒瘾中心，就是那种标准疗法之类的。然后最终，在这整套情况里发生的事情多到一个地步，他妻子说，你知道吗，就到这儿了，你必须解决这个问题，否则我们没法再跟你一起生活。对所有相关的人来说这都是非常可怕的处境，包括他自己，因为他绝对深爱着他的家人。他告诉我们——他的朋友们——说他要去洛杉矶这边的一家中心，那家中心基本上是用宗教、用对上帝的信仰来治疗成瘾的。他本来就相当虔诚，呃，大多数周日他都会去教堂，诸如此类。你可以想象，我们所有人，包括我自己，当时都觉得，行吧兄弟，那祝你好运。是啊，我
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we all thought including myself like okay dude like good luck yeah I hope this works but like I would say a zero minus one confidence in his ability to get and stay sober he just had not succeeded prior to this he's been sober more than four years now he got out of there and never looked back and I wonder now uh whether something something must have changed in his brain by adopting what was essentially a different incentive structure right different incentive structure but fear wasn't doing it before fear of extreme consequences which were on the table at that time um when he went in weren't enough something about going there and the work that he did there allowed him to then it's almost like he he got another prefrontal cortex a more powerful prefrontal cortex so maybe we could talk about that well that's a that's not a bad way of thinking about what it is that people are trying to do when they say pray MH they so you can invite in spirits to possess you that's a good way of thinking about it I know that's odd
希望这有用，但要我说，我对他能戒酒并保持清醒的信心是零，甚至是负一。他在这之前就从来没成功过。他现在已经戒了四年多了。他从那儿出来后就再也没回头过。我现在在想，呃，是不是他大脑里发生了某种变化，因为他采纳了一套本质上不同的激励结构，对吧？不同的激励结构。但恐惧在此之前是不管用的，对极端后果的恐惧——那些后果当时是真实摆在桌面上的，呃，在他进去的时候——都不足以奏效。但去那里以及他在那里所做的功课，有某种东西让他后来……这几乎就像是，他又多长了一个前额叶皮层——一个更强大的前额叶皮层，所以也许我们可以聊聊这个。嗯，这其实是个不错的角度，去思考人们说"祈祷"时到底想做什么。嗯，你可以邀请灵体进入并占据你——这是个很好的理解方式。我知道这个说法有点怪，但当你沉溺在自己的愤怒里时，你做的就是这件事，对吧。现在想象一下，你把
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terminology but that's what you do when you dwell on your rage right right now imagine that you're doing that in the most positive possible Direction so what you're doing is you're generating a hypothesis about the mode of conduct and perception that would best typify you if you were ideal and then establishing a relationship with that and inviting it in that's what the in Evangelical protest are doing when they formulate a personal relationship with Jesus Christ that's exactly what they're doing now on the addiction side so I studied alcoholism for years that was the T Target of my dissertation in the first 20 papers that I published I knew the alcoholism literature very well and the neurological end of it as well and it was known among alcohol researchers been known for 60 years more even that the most reliable treatment for alcoholism was religious transformation that's and this is well accepted among researchers in the field who have no religious affiliation whatsoever and I do believe that a huge
这件事往最积极的方向去做。所以你在做的，其实是对一种行为和感知的模式提出一个假设——如果你处在理想状态，什么样的行为和感知最能代表你——然后与那个东西建立关系，并邀请它进来。福音派新教徒在与耶稣基督建立个人关系时，做的就是这件事，一模一样。现在说说成瘾这一面。我研究酒精成瘾很多年，那是我博士论文的主题，也是我发表的头二十篇论文的内容。我对酒精成瘾的文献非常熟悉，神经学那一块也很熟。在酒精研究者当中，这一点已经被知晓六十年甚至更久了：最可靠的治疗方式就是宗教性的转变。这一点在该领域的研究者中是被广泛接受的，哪怕他们完全没有任何宗教背景。我确实相信，其中很大一部分原因是激励结构的重组。你刚才举例说，
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part of that is a consequence of incentive restructuring so you said for example with your friend that fear wouldn't work well alcohol is a pretty good an anxiolytic drug but it's also for people who are prone to alcoholism it's a good incentive reward Source Like Cocaine if you're going to you can't get rats addicted to cocaine if they live in a natural environment they have to be isolated in a cage before they'll bar press to their own death for cocaine so one of the things you want to do when you treat addiction is you want to substitute a new incentive structure right because the Part Of The Addictive process is you fall into a false incentive pattern right because cocaine makes you feel like you're doing something useful in respect to an important goal even though you're not it's it mimics that even if you know you're not even if you know it's I've never done cocaine I would be open about it if I had I I I think I like dopaminergic States enough that I've been um very scared of doing
对你朋友来说恐惧不管用。酒精是相当不错的抗焦虑药物，但它同时对那些有酗酒倾向的人来说，也是很好的激励奖赏来源，就像可卡因一样。如果你要——你没法让生活在自然环境里的老鼠对可卡因上瘾，必须先把它们隔离在笼子里，它们才会为了可卡因不停按压杠杆，直到把自己弄死。所以治疗成瘾时，你想做的事情之一，就是替换进一套新的激励结构，对吧。因为成瘾过程的一部分，就是你落入了一种虚假的激励模式。因为可卡因会让你觉得自己正在为某个重要目标做着有用的事，尽管你并没有。它模拟了那种感觉——哪怕你知道自己没有，哪怕你知道……我从来没碰过可卡因，如果碰过我会坦白说。我我我觉得我大概太喜欢多巴胺能的状态了，所以说实话我一直
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it frankly also it wasn't around much just because of when I went to college it just wasn't a drug that was around much but it's a remarkable drug in the sense that people who take cocaine seem to be excited about everything they're in this High dopaminergic State and their brain becomes exceptionally good at finding cocaine even in the absence of resources which is pretty remarkable if you think about it you know I mean most people can't find the or get the thing they want in the absence of the resources to get it but people who take hard drugs that really Spike dopamine somehow manage yeah sure sometimes they Li and Ste extremely steal but they'll do other things too right they'll socialize with people that have it so they don't have to lie cheat and steal it's it's it's incredible to see that drug and things like methamphetamine take over people's minds and now I'm thinking the pathway appears when the aim is firmly in mind right see this is another this is another insistence that's derived from the
很怕去碰它。另外那时候它也不太常见，因为我上大学的那个年代，这种药物本来就不太流行。但它是一种很了不起的药，从这个意义上说：吸可卡因的人好像对什么事都兴致勃勃，他们处在一种高多巴胺状态里，而且他们的大脑变得极其擅长找到可卡因，哪怕在完全没有资源的情况下。你仔细想想，这其实相当不可思议。我的意思是，大多数人在没有资源的情况下，是没法找到或得到自己想要的东西的。但那些吸食会让多巴胺飙升的硬性毒品的人，却总能做到。是啊，当然，有时候他们会撒谎、偷东西，偷得很凶。但他们也会做别的事，对吧，他们会去结交手里有货的人，这样就不用撒谎、欺骗、偷窃了。看到那种药物，还有像甲基苯丙胺这类东西，怎么接管一个人的大脑，真的令人难以置信。我现在在想：当目标牢牢确立在心里时，道路就会显现出来，对吧。你看，这又是一个来自宗教文献的坚持。因为那里的观念是：如果你的目标是向上的，
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religious literature so because the idea there is that if your aim is upward the pathway forward to that will make itself manifest and that's true you just pointed out that it was true in relationship to addiction right is that if once that once you're in that realm of possessed personality the pathway forward will show itself to you even under straightened circumstances right and it's partly because you can think of our per ctual systems and our emotional systems for that matter as navigating tools right so now the addiction the addicted brain what they see the aim is possessed by the substance of addiction right so now the highest God is cocaine let's say and so now all Pathways in the world are Pathways to cocaine all objects in the world are markers on the pathway to cocaine because it just dominates but it's not it's not just an Impulse it dominates the perceptual landscape as well that makes it and the emotional landscape and it comes with all these rationalizations that's all those lies right the whole thing it's a
通往它的道路就会自行显现。而这是真的——你刚才指出，在成瘾这件事上也同样成立，对吧，就是说一旦你进入那种被人格所占据的状态，前行的道路就会向你显现，甚至在受限的处境下，对吧，部分原因是你可以把我们的感知系统，还有我们的情绪系统——就这件事而言——看作导航工具，对吧。那么现在说成瘾，成瘾的大脑，他们看到的、他们的目标，是被成瘾物质所占据的，对吧。所以现在最高的神就是可卡因，比方说，于是世界上所有的道路都成了通往可卡因的路，世界上所有的东西都成了通往可卡因路上的路标，因为它彻底主导了一切。但它不只是一个冲动，它同样主导了感知的图景，还有情绪的图景，而且它还伴随着所有这些合理化的说辞，就是那一整套谎言，对吧，整个东西，那是一整个人格。是啊，残酷，太残酷了
06超常刺激：色情、加工食品与饱足
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whole Personality yeah brutal brutal nowadays I get a lot of questions um about pornography and the the discussion around pornography is always related to the discussion around masturbation um but let's just talk about pornography for a moment in this context of these primitive drives and these circuits within the hypothalamus which we were all born with that um clearly some of them are devoted to our progression as a species through reproduction zero question about that sexual behavior being linked to reproduction not always but certainly we can all agree on that I a necessary precondition I hope we can still all agree on that but um last time I checked that's still true a sperm and an egg met someplace in some context to create all of us okay we're still grounded in that pornography is something that I hear quite a lot from typically young males but sometimes young females or even older females who say that they can see themselves trying to resist the desire to go look at it and it almost
如今我收到很多关于色情内容的问题，而围绕色情内容的讨论总是牵扯到围绕自慰的讨论。不过我们先只谈色情内容，把它放在这些原始驱力的语境里，还有下丘脑里这些我们生来就有的神经回路。很明显，其中有些是服务于我们作为一个物种通过繁殖延续下去的，这一点毫无疑问。性行为和繁殖相关联——并不总是，但至少我们都能同意这一点。我觉得那是个必要前提，我希望我们还都能同意这一点。不过呃，我上次确认的时候这还是成立的：一个精子和一个卵子在某个地方、某种情境下相遇，才有了我们所有人。好，我们还是立足于这一点。关于色情内容，我听到很多来自——通常是年轻男性，但有时也有年轻女性，或者甚至年纪更大的女性——她们说，她们能看到自己在试图抵抗那种想去看的欲望，而那几乎
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doesn't feel like a desire anymore they're sort of just in a um kind of a a compulsion that is that is almost unconscious but they're just aware of the fact that disorder like an disorder they're doing it they know they shouldn't be doing it and they can't help themselves and we could think about two ways to attack this if one believes it's a real concern and they certainly do so I do um I don't I would be open if I if I had or do I pornography is not been my thing and and I don't struggle with it but but when I hear from these people it's so clear that they're asking is it the prevalence of pornography out there or is it something really broken in them like are they broken but I don't know that I would say after having the discussion we've had thus far that they're broken it seems to me that it's like like the as you said it's the manifestation of one part of their it's one personality within them well and it's been it's been compulsively rewarded so you know when when a when you see yourself moving
已经不像是欲望了，他们多少就是处在一种呃，一种强迫状态里，那几乎是无意识的，但他们只是意识到这个事实……像是一种失调，他们正在做，他们知道自己不该做，却控制不住自己。我们可以从两个角度来对付这件事——如果一个人认为这是个真实的问题，而他们确实这么认为，我也这么认为。我不……我是持开放态度的，如果我有过或者现在有的话——色情内容一直不是我感兴趣的东西，我也不为此挣扎，但当我听到这些人讲的时候，非常清楚他们其实是在问：是外面色情内容太泛滥了，还是他们身上真有什么坏掉了他们是不是坏掉了。但基于我们到目前为止的这番讨论，我不觉得我会说他们坏掉了。在我看来，就像你说的，这是他们身上某一部分的显现，是他们内部的某一个人格对，而且它一直在被强迫性地奖励。你知道，当你看到自己正朝着一个渴望的目标
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towards the culmination of a desired goal a dopamine that's accompanied by dopamine release okay and so two things you know this but everybody who's listening might not there's two elements to that dopamine release one is pleasure but the other is that the dopamine imagine that there are circuits activated as you're acting what the dopamine does is increase the probability that the circuits were that were activated just before the positive experience happened grow okay so now if you're engaged with pornography and that culminates in SE in in successful sexual satiation which it can that's what masturbation does then the whole personality that's oriented toward that set of stimuli is going to come to dominate it's very much like an addiction except it's it's you know there there has been there's been work done with generally simpler animals on these phenomena called super stimuli I think it's stickleback fish where this was first observed so males I hope I get this right but I've got it approximately right I believe
一步步达成推进时，那会伴随着多巴胺的释放，好。有两件事——你是知道的，但在听的人可能不知道——多巴胺释放有两个成分，一个是快感，另一个是多巴胺……想象一下，在你行动的时候有一些回路被激活了，多巴胺所做的，是提高那些在正向体验发生之前刚刚被激活的回路继续生长的概率，好。那么现在，如果你在使用色情内容，而这最终导向成功的性满足——它是可以的，自慰就是干这个的——那么整个朝向那套刺激的人格就会变得占主导。这非常像成瘾，只不过它是……你知道，已经有人用通常比较简单的动物做过研究，研究这种叫做超常刺激的现象。我记得最早是在棘鱼身上观察到的。雄性——我希望我说得对，但我相信大致不差——我记得是雄性棘鱼会非常
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it's male sticklebacks will they're are very agressive towards other male sticklebacks and the reason they're aggressive is because the other male sticklebacks have a red dot on their bellies so they don't like red dotts at all and so you can really enrage a stickleback with a red dot and if you use a red dot that's a little bigger and a little brighter than the typical Red Dot you get a super stimulus it's virtually irresistible to the stickle back and it's weird because the maximal activation is produced by a stimulus that they wouldn't see in nature it slightly exceeds that's exactly what pornography does it's a super stimulus right and it's not surprising that young males in particular are acceptable to that because male sexuality in human beings is very visually oriented very and a lot of our brain is visual way more than virtually every other animal certainly every other primate and ver and every other mammal and so we have a situation where any 13-year-old boy can see more hyper attractive super stimulus
有攻击性地对待其他雄性棘鱼，而它们之所以有攻击性，是因为其他雄性棘鱼的腹部有一个红点。所以它们根本受不了红点，于是你可以用一个红点把一条棘鱼激怒得不行。而如果你用一个比典型红点稍微大一点、稍微更鲜艳一点的红点，你就得到了一个超常刺激，那对棘鱼来说几乎无法抗拒。而且很奇怪的是，最大程度的激活是由一个它们在自然界里根本看不到的刺激引发的，它略微超出了……这正是色情内容在做的事，它就是一种超常刺激对，而且尤其是年轻男性容易受它影响，这并不令人意外，因为人类的男性性欲非常依赖视觉，非常。而且我们大脑有很大一部分是视觉性的，远远超过几乎所有其他动物肯定超过所有其他灵长类，也超过所有其他哺乳动物。于是我们就有了这样一种局面：任何一个13岁的男孩，一天之内能看到的超高吸引力、超常刺激的女性，比100年前活着的最成功的男人一辈子见到的
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women in one day than the most successful man who ever lived a 100 years ago would have ever seen in his whole life yeah well that's a like an evolutionary ecological radical ecological transformation and the and it's worse because it's easily accessible so it takes no work right so not only is it a super stimulus it's one that's at hand so to speak and the uh and the uh the analog in the food world would bear highly palatable highly processed food yeah sugar fat combination you go into the other day I went into a gas station to use the restroom because I was traveling home for Thanksgiving and and I looked around I and I I thought this isn't a convenience store this is a pharmacy right everything that had chocolate also also seemed to have caffeine and color everything every drink seemed to combine not just sugar but also caffeine and some other things that would provide s stimulants then you've got nicotine and and these things on their own aren't necessarily bad any one of these one elements in low low enough doses in
还要多。是啊，那简直是一种演化生态学上的、彻底的生态转变。而且更糟的是，它太容易获取了，完全不费力气，对吧。所以它不仅是超常刺激，还是一种唾手可得的超常刺激。而那个呃而那个呃，食物世界里的对应物就是——高度美味、高度加工的食品。对，糖和脂肪的组合。你走进……前几天我因为感恩节要回家，路上走进一个加油站上厕所，我环顾了一圈我心想，这不是便利店，这是药房，对吧。凡是含巧克力的东西好像也都含咖啡因和色素每样东西、每种饮料，似乎都不只是加了糖，还加了咖啡因和别的一些能提供兴奋作用的东西。然后还有尼古丁。这些东西单独来看不一定是坏的，其中任何一种成分，在足够低的剂量下、不频繁使用等等。但也许糖是那个我认为明显
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frequent use Etc but maybe sugar being the one that that clearly I think uh deserves um deeper investigation right um but it just occurred to me much different than difference between manufacturing sugar and Manufacturing cocaine I mean you take something that's available in its natural form in relatively low concentrations and purify it I mean cocoa leaves the natives used cocoa leaves forever as mild stimulant didn't seem to cause them any trouble but that's way different than cocaine right and sugar has the same arguably the same pathological properties well I didn't think we were going to go here but I think it's extremely appropriate and important that we do so I I know that you followed what is essentially an Elimination Diet for a number of years you eat meat right um I eat meat vegetables fruit and um some starches unrefined starches in any event one thing that I is absolutely clear from following a clean diet so to speak of any kind but let's say of the sort that you follow or I
值得呃更深入研究的东西，对吧。呃不过我当时就想到，制造糖和制造可卡因之间的差别……我是说，你拿一样在自然形态下浓度相对较低的东西，然后把它提纯我是说古柯叶——当地人一直把古柯叶当作温和的兴奋剂在用，好像也没给他们带来什么麻烦但那跟可卡因完全是两回事，对吧。而糖可以说也具有同样的致病特性。嗯，我本来没想到我们会聊到这儿，但我觉得我们聊到这个非常恰当、也非常重要。我知道你好些年来吃的基本上算是一种排除饮食法——你吃肉，对吧。呃我吃肉蔬菜、水果，还有呃一些淀粉类，未精制的淀粉。总之，有一件事我觉得是绝对清楚的：当你遵循某种所谓干净的饮食——任何一种都行，但就说你那种或者我这种——你很快就会学到
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follow is that you very soon learn the relationship between Taste of the food volume of the food macronutrient so protein fat or carbohydrate content micronutrients and satiation which is if you think about it it's sort of like a big plate of broccoli or a big steak or something the brain learns and the hypothalamus learns the association between the taste the caloric content what else is in there and satiation if you think about highly processed food or even combinations of multiple ingredients that's absolutely impossible to do the brain can't parse what are the various things in here and how do they relate to my feelings of satisfaction it's the difference between a super drug and what I believe are the the elements that were explain explain why you think that's that link learned link about satiation can't be learned in the case of these processed foods yeah because in the context of these processed foods they're activating multiple neuron systems in the hypothalamus and gut we know that the gut has neurons that can
食物的味道、食物的分量、宏量营养素（也就是蛋白质、脂肪或碳水化合物的含量）、微量营养素和饱足感之间的关系。如果你想一想，比如一大盘西兰花，或者一大块牛排之类的，大脑会学习，下丘脑会学习味道、热量含量、里面还有些什么成分，和饱足感之间的关联。但如果你想想高度加工的食品，或者哪怕只是多种配料的组合，那就完全不可能做到了。大脑没法解析这里面到底有哪些东西，以及它们和我的满足感是什么关系这就是超级药物和我认为的那些成分之间的区别……解释一下，解释一下你为什么认为在这些加工食品的情况下，那种关于饱足感的习得性关联学不成。对，因为在这些加工食品的情境下，它们同时激活了下丘脑和肠道里的多个神经元系统。我们知道肠道里有神经元能
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respond to Sugar fatty acids and amino acid content and there's a you know this prominent theory that you know one of the main reasons we eat is to forage for amino amino acids that we'll eat until we get enough of the essential amino acids and and we correlate that with taste but that the gut has neurons we we know the gut has neurons that signal through the Vegas up through a little relay called the noo gangling if you want to look at it fun um fun name and then up to the dopaminergic centers of the brain which make us oh when we eat something that has a high uh essential amino acid content like a steak like a really tasty steak the neurons in the gut in a way that is independent of taste are signal in to the brain ah I'm getting essential amino acids you should eat more of this thing if those let's just say a small fraction of those amino acids that are present in a candy bar in a you know a package of of Skittles which I'm I'm guessing there's very few of them if any you're going to continue
对糖、脂肪酸和氨基酸含量做出反应。而且有个，你知道的，很有影响力的理论说，我们进食的主要原因之一是为了觅取氨基酸——我们会一直吃，直到获得足够的必需氨基酸，而我们把这个和味道关联起来。但肠道里有神经元，我们知道肠道里有神经元，它们的信号会通过迷走神经往上传，经过一个叫结状神经节的小中继站——你要是想查查的话，这名字呃挺有意思——然后再往上传到大脑的多巴胺能中枢，这让我们……哦，当我们吃到某种必需氨基酸含量很高的东西比如一块牛排，一块特别好吃的牛排，肠道里的神经元就会以一种独立于味觉的方式向大脑发信号：啊，我正在获得必需氨基酸，你应该多吃这个东西。如果那些……我们就说，一块糖果棒里、或者你知道的，一包彩虹糖里所含的那些氨基酸只有很小一部分我猜里面的氨基酸非常少，甚至一点都没有——那你就会继续去觅食，因为那些神经元
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to forage for food because those neurons will also respond to Sugar basically it will keep you eating until you get enough of those amino acids in other words there are two parallel tracks one within our system Pathways to satiation that totally right multiple Pathways to satiation one depending on taste one dependent on actual nutrient content the mouth can only learn taste Association the mouth can't actually learn nutrient content the gut knows nutrient content the problem is you take a food that is low in a micronutrient or macronutrient or essential amino acids or essential fatty acids after all there are no essential carbohydrates there are only essential amino acids and essential fatty acids right right right and it will keep you eating and it will keep the appetite system revving until you get enough of those now here's the issue if you've ever done this that's empty calories empty calories but so so in some ways um you know this again is an analog to the whole discussion around pornography
也会对糖做出反应。基本上，它会让你一直吃，直到你摄入足够的那些氨基酸。换句话说，我们体内有两条并行的通路，通往饱足感的通路……完全正确，通往饱足感有多条通路一条取决于味道，一条取决于实际的营养成分。嘴巴只能学习味道的关联嘴巴没法真正知道营养成分，肠道才知道营养成分。问题在于，你吃的食物如果缺乏某种微量营养素或宏量营养素，或者必需氨基酸、必需脂肪酸——毕竟根本不存在必需碳水化合物，只有必需氨基酸和必需脂肪酸。对对对，那么它就会让你一直吃，让食欲系统一直高速运转，直到你摄入足够为止。现在问题来了如果你试过的话……那就是空热量。空热量。所以从某种意义上说，呃，你知道，这又是整个关于色情内容、自慰和繁殖的讨论的一个对应。对吧，我不是说繁殖是性活动的全部意义，但在
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masturbation and and reproduction right I'm not saying that reproduction is the be all end all of sexual activity but in the evolutionary sense it absolutely is right there's no question about that there's no moral judgment there that's just the reality so the the the the situation with food is is the following if we are eating without any gut Level under understanding of what what's coming in we will keep eating if you let me give an example you probably haven't done this experiment in a while but if you've ever just had you know ribeye steak or two it's pretty satiating maybe you also have a salad if you're me or some broccoli or something like that if one takes then even after you've eaten all that one bite of pasta one bite of pasta the the next impulse is more yes right even though you already have enough essential amino acids from those steaks you're loosing you know uh threshold you've reached that Etc all the the good stuff why because blood glucose goes up and then you desire more
演化的意义上它绝对就是，对吧。这一点毫无疑问，这里没有道德评判，这就是现实。所以食物这边的情况是这样的：如果我们在进食时，肠道层面完全不了解进来的是什么，我们就会一直吃下去。让我举个例子，你可能已经有一阵子没做过这个实验了，但如果你吃过，你知道，一两块肋眼牛排，那是相当有饱足感的，也许你还配了份沙拉——如果是我的话——或者一些西兰花之类的。那么即使你已经吃完了这一切，只要再吃一口意面，就一口意面，接下来的冲动就是：还要更多。对吧，即使你已经从那些牛排里获得了足够的必需氨基酸，你已经，你知道，呃达到那个阈值了，等等，所有该有的都有了。为什么？因为血糖上去了，然后你就想要更多，因为血糖升高
1:00:29
because blood glucose elevations are linked directly to the dopaminergic system so what I'm basically trying to say here is that I do think that there are elements to our food modern food if you will it seems like it's you know anything but modern in the sense that it's worse for us than the more primitive foods but highly processed foods pornography any drug that spikes dopamine dramatically like methamphetamine for instance any behavior that spikes dopamine dramatically that very quickly hijacks these circuits and to me the way to to teach those circuits a a calmer more um prudent version of themselves right to enter a different hypothalamic uh activation pattern is to start breaking the things down into their Essential Elements right about the motivation the pleasure Etc to Tamp all that down I mean we know that for pornography if the pornography is very extreme then less extreme pornography doesn't seem to work well that's because there's also a novelty kick in dopaminergic striving right I mean so
是和多巴胺能系统直接挂钩的。所以我基本上想说的是，我确实认为我们的食物——现代食物，如果你愿意这么叫的话——里面有些成分……不过它看起来一点也不像现代的好东西，因为它对我们比那些更原始的食物更糟。但高度加工的食品、色情内容、任何让多巴胺剧烈飙升的药物，比如甲基苯丙胺，还有任何让多巴胺剧烈飙升的行为，都会很快劫持这些神经回路。而在我看来，要教会这些回路一个更平静、更呃更审慎的版本，对吧，要让它进入一种不同的下丘脑激活模式，方法就是开始把这些东西拆解成它们的基本元素，对吧，关于动机、快感等等，把那些都压下去。我是说，我们知道，对色情内容来说，如果看的内容非常极端，那么不那么极端的内容似乎就不起作用了。对，那是因为多巴胺能的追求里还有一份新奇感带来的刺激，对吧。我是说
1:01:30
with any basic repetitive pleasure there's a dopaminergic kick but with any novelty there's also a dopaminergic kick so there's an optimized threshold for novelty and repetitive striving that plays out in pornography so um there's the direct effect of the stimulus as such but the there's variation in the stimulus that's also novel and so you it's a common pattern for pornographic usage to become more what would you say fetishistic that's one way of thinking about it as it progresses because that that keeps the novelty alive that's very dangerous that's a very dangerous development right and I would venture in a very different domain that if you were to eat your steaks slathered in barbecue sauce for a couple of weeks going back to the way that you eat them now which by the way this is a great opportunity to educate people about something that you taught me when we had dinner last which is that if you're going to order a steak order a Pittsburgh Char the Char on the outside is incredibly tasty they're we
任何基本的重复性快感都会带来多巴胺的刺激，但任何新奇的东西同样会带来多巴胺的刺激，所以在新奇和重复追求之间存在一个最优阈值，这在色情内容的使用上体现得很明显。所以呃，一方面有刺激本身的直接效应，另一方面刺激的变化本身也是新奇的。所以有一个很常见的模式：色情内容的使用会变得越来越……怎么说呢，恋物化。可以这么理解，随着时间推进会这样，因为那样才能维持新奇感。那非常危险，那是一个非常危险的发展方向，对吧。而且我敢说，在一个完全不同的领域里，如果你连着几个星期吃裹满烧烤酱的牛排，再回到你现在吃牛排的方式——顺便说一句，这正好是个好机会，让我跟大家讲讲你上次我们一起吃饭时教我的一件事：如果你要点牛排，就点匹兹堡式焦烤（Pittsburgh Char），外面那层焦壳特别香。我们太爱那个了。那是鲜味（Umami），是我们……你有专门的味觉受体，它很
1:02:32
love that the Umami taste is that we you have a devoted taste receptor that it's complex yeah so and if they don't know what a Pittsburgh Char is then maybe you're in the wrong restaurant or you need to educate them but incredibly satiating delicious right but if you were to slather those steaks in in a bunch of things I would suspect that after a while your plain steaks wouldn't taste as good but certain but the way to make them taste good again would be to eat them plain for a period of time in which the stuff the all the condiments Etc would start to become aversive I do believe that when we return to the the sort of most um naturally satisfying mode of engaging with these uh with these circuits here we're talking about food and sex in parallel that they become especially satiating and I think that you know in hearing from all these people that are addicted to pornography and they're not addicted like they telling me they love it and they can't stop they're telling me it's no longer working for them that the that there's
复杂。对。而且如果他们不知道什么是 Pittsburgh Char，那可能你走错餐厅了，或者你得教教他们。但那非常有饱足感，太好吃了，对吧。可是如果你在那些牛排上抹满一堆东西，我猜过一阵子，你那些原味牛排就不会那么好吃了。但是……但让它们重新变好吃的办法就是有一段时间只吃原味的，在这期间那些东西、所有那些调味料等等，会开始变得让人反感。我确实相信，当我们回到那种呃最自然、最令人满足的方式去参与这些呃这些回路时——这里我们是把食物和性放在一起讲——它们会变得格外令人满足。而且我觉得你知道，从所有这些对色情内容成瘾的人那里听来的，他们并不是那种跟我说他们很享受、只是停不下来的成瘾；他们告诉我的是，这对他们已经不起作用了，就是说
1:03:27
this you know diminishment in the amount of dopamine that they're getting over time and they feel trapped within it and they have no sense whatsoever because they haven't been socialized you to go out and find a real relationship a real sexual relationship or a relationship of any well it also it's also there is some evidence suggesting too that if you've been socialized into pornography sexuality it's actually quite difficult to establish a sexual relationship with an actual partner now I would say to some degree that's always been difficult because it's a complex form of Behavior but the introduction of pornography well it sets up a whole landscape of expectation for example that's not necessarily going to play out that well in the real world let's say and and there's also a learning of those biological systems in the brain to um evoke arousal by observing sex as opposed to participating complet completely different so some of these um right that's voer right you're basically learning to be a Voyer right right and
随着时间推移，他们获得的多巴胺越来越少，他们感到被困在里面，而且他们完全不知道该怎么办，因为他们没有被社会化地引导去外面建立一段真实的关系，一段真实的性关系，或者任何一种关系。嗯，而且还有一些证据表明，如果你是在色情化的性里被社会化的，那么要和一个真实的伴侣建立性关系其实相当困难当然我得说，这在某种程度上一直都不容易，因为这是一种复杂的行为形式但色情内容的引入，嗯，它会树立起一整套期待的图景，比如说，而那些期待未必能实现在现实世界里做得好，比方说；而且大脑中那些生物系统也存在一种学习，就是通过观看性行为而不是参与其中来唤起性兴奋，这完全是两码事，所以其中有些——对，那就是窥淫，对吧，你基本上是在学着成为一个窥淫者，对，没错。那你想想那些高度可塑的年轻大脑，是啊，在学习这个，
07远距离作用与亚伯拉罕的冒险召唤
1:04:24
so you think about young brains that are highly plastic yeah learning that so the returning yeah we have no idea what to make of that because especially for young men because when they hit puberty sexuality becomes a very uh insistent force and we have no idea what effect pornography has on the development of male sexuality none I've wondered for a while whether there's something inherently rewarding about creating impact or action at a distance here's why I've been watching these videos of elon's rockets and thinking like that is awesome that is awesome we're built on a throwing platform you know yeah just there's one image of the of the the rocket thrusters that just captivated me I'm I'm not a spacecraft guy I mean I think it's really cool but I wouldn't consider myself somebody that like looks at the stars and thinks I want to go you I want to go up there I might if I give the opportunity that's not been my thing but I looked at this and I thought what an awesome Display of Power but then I
所以回到那个问题，是啊，我们完全不知道该怎么看待这件事，尤其是对年轻男性来说，因为当他们进入青春期时，性欲会变成一股非常急迫的力量，而我们完全不知道色情内容对男性性欲的发展会产生什么影响，一无所知。我一直在想，创造影响力或者说远距离作用，本身是不是有某种内在的奖赏性，我说说原因。我一直在看埃隆那些火箭的视频，心想那太酷了，那真是太酷了，我们生来就是一个投掷的平台，你知道吧，是啊，其中有一个画面是火箭推进器，一下子就把我迷住了，我不是搞航天的人，我是说我觉得那非常酷，但我不会把自己当成那种仰望星空、心想我想上去、我想去那里的人，如果有机会我可能会去，但那不是我的兴趣所在，可我看着这个，心想这是多么震撼的力量展示啊，但接着我就在想，力量到底是什么？它
1:05:30
was saying like what is power it's really about having impact or action at a distance when we were kids we like dirt claw Wars targeted right what what an incredible display of funneling the laws of physics and Engineering into something that can have enormous action at a distance and perhaps even take us into new galaxies amazing right the word sin in many languages means to miss the Target right and and it it speaks to exactly what you're describing like that that the cache of action at a distance that's unbelievably deeply embedded in us that's why I made that throwing gesture like human beings throw that's our physiology right we can throw something at a distant Target well that's structured our our cognition we're using our thoughts to hit distant targets that's what we do all the games that young men play so many of those games are Target games all of the sports spectacles that people want to participate in vicariously even vicariously they're Target hitting games like our gaze specifies as the center of
其实就是产生影响，或者说远距离作用。我们小时候玩的那种土块大战，都是有目标的，对吧，这是多么不可思议地把物理定律和工程学汇聚成某种能产生巨大远距离作用的东西，甚至可能把我们带向新的星系，太神奇了，对吧。在很多语言里，“罪”这个词的意思就是没有命中目标，对吧，这恰恰说明了你所描述的那种东西，就是远距离作用所带来的那种价值，它深深地嵌在我们身上，这就是我做那个投掷动作的原因——人类会投掷，那是我们的生理构造，对吧，我们能把东西扔向远处的目标，而这塑造了我们的认知，我们用自己的思想去击中远处的目标，我们就是干这个的。年轻男性玩的所有游戏，那么多都是打靶类游戏，人们想要替代性地参与的所有体育赛事，哪怕只是替代性地参与，都是命中目标的游戏，就连我们的目光都把中心定义成一个
1:06:37
a Target there's targets everywhere and we're unbelievably focused on Bridging the Gap between where we are and where we're going yeah that's the whole perceptual landscape I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors function I recently became a function member after searching for for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing while I've long been a fan of blood testing I really wanted to find a more in-depth program for analyzing blood urine and saliva to get a full picture of my heart health my hormone status my immune system regulation my metabolic function my vitamin and mineral status and other critical areas of my overall health and vitality function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to physical and mental health but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from Top Doctors on your results results for example in one of my first tests with function I learned that I had two high levels of mercury in my blood this was totally surprising to me
靶心，到处都是目标，我们无比专注于弥合当下所在与目标所在之间的差距，是啊，那就是整个知觉图景。我想先暂停一下，感谢我们的赞助商之一 Function。我最近成为了 Function 的会员，此前我一直在寻找最全面的化验检测方案。虽然我长期以来都很推崇血液检测，但我真的很想找到一个更深入的项目，能分析血液、尿液和唾液，从而全面了解我的心脏健康、激素水平、免疫系统调节、代谢功能、维生素和矿物质水平以及其他影响整体健康和活力的关键指标。Function 不仅检测 100 多项对身心健康至关重要的生物标志物，还会分析这些结果，并提供顶尖医生对你结果的解读。举个例子，在我用 Function 做的头几次检测中，我发现自己血液里的汞含量偏高，这完全出乎我的意料，
1:07:33
I had no idea prior to taking the test function not only helped me detect this but offered medical doctor informed insights on how to best reduced those mercury levels which included limiting my tuna consumption because I'd been eating a lot of tuna while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with Knack and acetylcysteine both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification a and worked to reduce my mercury levels comprehensive lab testing like this is so important for health and while I've been doing it for years I've always found it to be overly complicated and expensive I've been so impressed by function both at the level of ease of use that is getting the test done as well as how comprehensive and how actionable the tests are that I recently joined their Advisory Board and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast if you'd like to try function go to function health.com huberman function currently has a weight list of over 250,000 people but they're offering
在做检测之前我毫不知情。Function 不仅帮我发现了这一点，还提供了由医生给出的建议，告诉我如何最好地降低汞含量，其中包括限制金枪鱼的摄入量，因为我之前吃了很多金枪鱼，同时努力多吃深绿色叶菜，并补充 NAC 也就是乙酰半胱氨酸，这两者都能支持谷胱甘肽的生成和排毒，这些措施帮我降低了汞含量。像这样全面的化验检测对健康非常重要，虽然我已经做了很多年，但一直觉得这件事过于繁琐和昂贵。我对 Function 印象非常深刻，无论是使用的便捷程度——也就是完成检测这件事——还是检测的全面性和可操作性，以至于我最近加入了他们的顾问委员会，也很高兴他们能赞助这档播客。如果你想试试 Function，请访问functionhealth.com/huberman。Function 目前的等候名单上有超过 25 万人，但他们为
1:08:28
Early Access to huberman lab listeners again that's function health.com huberman to get early access to function so this thing about action at a distance to me feels like so inherent to our progression as a species most Technologies are about that in fact if you think about social media you know somebody tweets something and you know when people react to it maybe positively or negatively the school shooter in a very dark example a sad a tragic example right action at a distance then you think about pornography and masturbation and I'm not passing any moral judgment here it's a the ultimate form of creating action at a distance would be to create a new human being with somebody right I mean that's it's you're propagating it in physical distance creating a new being and in time right I mean incredible and then you think about masturbation and you think about pornography and there is no action at a distance and I'm not just punning here I mean literally there's not much action at a distance it's all
Huberman Lab 的听众提供优先体验的机会，再说一次，访问 functionhealth.com/huberman 就能优先体验 Function。所以关于远距离作用这件事，在我看来，它对我们这个物种的发展太根本了，事实上大多数技术都是关于这个的，你想想社交媒体，有人发了条推文，然后人们对它做出反应，可能是正面的也可能是负面的；举一个非常黑暗的例子，校园枪击者，一个悲剧的例子，对吧，也是远距离作用。然后你再想想色情内容和自慰——我在这里不做任何道德评判——创造远距离作用的终极形式就是和某个人一起创造出一个新的人类，对吧，我是说那就是，你在物理距离上延续自己，创造出一个新的生命，也在时间上延续，对吧，太不可思议了。然后你再想想自慰，想想色情内容，那里根本没有远距离作用，我不只是在玩文字游戏，我是说字面意义上就没有多少远距离作用，一切都
1:09:26
up close to oneself but there's there's no impact on anybody it's almost as if the energy that we're born with to be able to create positive things to evolve our species through action at a distance through creation of knowledge technology children communities culture the ultimate expression it's just loop back into oneself it's it's as if and and I I don't know what language there is for this in biology but it's as if like all that dop energic Drive is just kind of looped back into oneself and it goes nowhere and I think when I hear about the incredibly like what the language for it is only like the diminished Souls of these people who are coming to me saying like you know like help and I'm thinking okay listen I'm a podcaster I'm a scientist I know some things about the dopaminergic system but you know there are ways that they can get help I think they're 12-step programs for this and so forth and other things but you know I think what they're saying is that they're they're just kind of dissolving in their own um
贴近自身，对任何人都没有影响。这几乎就像是，我们与生俱来的那种能量，本来是用来创造美好的事物、通过远距离作用推动我们这个物种演进的，通过创造知识、技术、孩子、社群、文化——那是终极的表达——结果却只是绕回到了自己身上，就好像……我不知道生物学里有没有相应的说法，但就好像所有那些多巴胺能的驱动力都只是绕回到了自己身上，哪儿也去不了。我想，当我听到那些——该怎么形容呢，只能说是那些来找我说“帮帮我”的人那种萎靡不振的灵魂状态，我心想，好吧，听着，我是个播客主持人，我是个科学家，我对多巴胺系统略知一二，但确实有一些途径可以帮到他们，我想针对这个是有十二步戒瘾项目之类的，还有别的办法。但我觉得他们想说的是，他们只是在自己的……在自己的反射里逐渐消解，
1:10:26
in their own reflex but there's no action at a distance for them this is the same thing I see with the Failure to Launch kids who are still living at home who are not having any action at a distance I think we were designed to disperse from our families and to create action at a distance up until a certain age but I see so many of the problems that we face as failure to find a productive way to have action failure Venture I would say in in the ter techology that I've been developing so for example in this in this book and we who wrestle with God I'm one of the stories I analyze is the story of Abraham and it's very interesting story psychologically I mean I think it's it's it's stunning actually and I'll lay some of that out for you you can tell me what you think about it so so the Divine is characterized in the classic stories of our culture as um the ultimate up so you could think about the Divine as the target as such rather than any particular Target so here's a way of thinking about it you
对他们来说没有任何远距离作用。这和我在那些“发射失败”的孩子身上看到的是同一回事，他们还住在家里，没有任何远距离作用。我认为我们被设计成要在某个年龄之前从家庭中散播出去，去创造远距离作用，但我看到我们面临的很多问题，都是没能找到一种富有成效的方式去产生作用，用我一直在发展的那套术语来说，我会称之为“冒险”的失败。举个例子，在我这本《我们与神摔跤》的书里，我分析的其中一个故事是亚伯拉罕的故事，从心理学角度看这是个非常有意思的故事，我是说我觉得它其实相当震撼，我给你讲讲其中一些内容，你可以告诉我你怎么看。所以，在我们文化的经典故事里，神性被刻画为终极的“上”，所以你可以把神性想成“目标本身”，而不是任何具体的目标。这么想吧，你知道，某个抱负会攫住你，然后你会瞄准去实现那个
1:11:35
know so an ambition will seize you and then you'll aim at fulfilling that ambition but once the ambition is fulfilled a new ambition makes itself manifest which might be a greater ambition let's say if if your personality is expansive and then if you fulfill that the same thing will happen so then you could imagine that there's a meta ambition behind all proximal Ambitions okay now the Divine characterization of the Divine is a characterization of that meta ambition that's a good way of thinking about it so it's something that recedes as you approach it but it's also the thing that all Ambitions have in common and we know there is such a thing because otherwise we wouldn't have a concept of ambition right which speaks to a commonality among Ambitions okay in the story of Abraham the Divine is characterized in relationship to something like ambition so Abraham has the he's already immersed in a situation that's Akin in a way to the scenario of a wealthy and a a person in the modern world who's in a situation of
抱负，可一旦这个抱负实现了，一个新的抱负就会显现出来，它可能是更大的抱负，比方说，如果你的人格是扩张型的；而如果你又实现了那个，同样的事情还会发生。那么你就可以设想，在所有近端的抱负背后，存在一个元抱负。好，对神性的刻画，就是对那个元抱负的刻画，这是个很好的思考方式。所以它是那种你越接近就越后退的东西，但它同时也是所有抱负的共同之处，而我们知道确实存在这样的东西，否则我们就不会有“抱负”这个概念，对吧，这个概念本身就说明了各种抱负之间存在共性。好，在亚伯拉罕的故事里，神性是在与抱负的关系中被刻画的。亚伯拉罕的处境，在某种程度上类似于现代世界里一个富裕之人身处丰裕之中的情形，亚伯拉罕的父母很
1:12:42
abundance Abraham's parents are wealthy and they provide for him there's nothing he needs to do and in consequence so he's attained the Socialist Utopia or the cons humorist Utopia you can look at it either way and there's no reason for him to move forward so he doesn't he doesn't do anything till he's 75 and then the voice comes to him which is the voice of Adventure and it's God in this story that's how God is defined right and God says to Abraham you have to leave all this Comfort which is a very interesting proposition to begin with it's like why the hell hell would you leave that when you have everything you need well the implication is is that you don't have everything you need when you're being delivered everything you need that isn't how life works okay so God says you have to leave your your father's tent you have to leave your tribe you have to leave those who speak your language you have to venture out into the world so God is conceptualized in this story as the impulse the voice that compels you
富有，他们供养着他，他什么都不需要做，结果他就达到了社会主义的乌托邦，或者说消费主义的乌托邦，你怎么看都行，而他没有理由往前走，所以他就不动，他什么也不做，直到 75 岁，然后那个声音临到他，那是冒险的声音，在这个故事里它就是神，神就是这样被定义的，对吧。神对亚伯拉罕说，你必须离开这一切舒适，这一开始就是个非常有意思的命题，就像，你到底为什么要离开那种什么都不缺的状态呢？嗯，这里面的含义是，当一切所需都被送到你面前时，你其实并没有拥有你所需的一切，生活不是那样运作的。好，所以神说你必须离开你父亲的帐篷，你必须离开你的部族，你必须离开那些和你说同一种语言的人，你必须出去闯荡这个世界。所以在这个故事里，神被概念化为那种冲动，那个把你
1:13:55
out into the world and that encourages you to do so so that's a hypothesis about what the ultimate up is okay and Abraham agrees and he does so in two ways he he builds an altar signifying his aim that he's going to abide by the command of this voice or the invitation of this voice and that he'll make the appropriate sacrifices there a crucial there's a crucial it's a crucial point to understand because the process of transformation requires sacrifice to be more than you are means you have to let go of that which you were you have to make sacrifices now Abraham's life is punctuated by a sequence of reaffirmations of his upward aim and declamations of his willingness to sacrifice every time he finishes an adventure he re constitutes the Covenant right so this is this agreement to follow the voice of Adventure okay God makes him a deal that's the Covenant it's very interesting deal so now imagine biologically speaking that there is an instinct to integrate that operates within us okay so now it's not
推向世界、并鼓励你这么做的声音。这就是关于“终极的上”是什么的一个假说。好，亚伯拉罕同意了，而且他以两种方式去做：他筑了一座祭坛，标志着他的目标，表明他将遵从这个声音的命令，或者说这个声音的邀请，并且他会在那里做出相应的献祭。这是一个关键的——这是一个至关重要的要点，必须理解，因为转变的过程需要献祭。要超越现在的自己，就意味着你必须放下过去的自己，你必须做出牺牲。而亚伯拉罕的一生，是由一连串对他向上目标的再次确认，以及对他愿意献祭的宣告所标点的，每次他完成一场冒险，他就重新立定那个约，对吧，这就是遵从冒险之声的协议。好，神和他立了个约，那就是圣约，这是个很有意思的交易，所以现在从生物学角度想象一下，我们体内运作着一种整合的本能。好，那么它
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it's just as fundamental as the hypothalamic motivational States let's say but it's more sophisticated and what it's trying to do is to integrate all the motivational States across time and socially right and then IM imagine it manifests itself as an instinct to be something like the instinct to mature right to move forward right to leave your zone of comfort right and maybe there have been people like chicks Mahi who've characterized that as the attractiveness of flow and maybe it's associated with the exploratory circuit in the hypothalamus that's mediated by dopamine okay but it's it's got its character now the character of that instinct in this story is the way it's characterized is as the voice of Adventure so it's the thing that asks you to move beyond your zone of comfort and go into the foreign world now the advantage to that is that you fortify yourself and you develop right so no matter how good you are now if you push yourself to the edge you're going to be better than you are and that's a
就和下丘脑的动机状态一样根本，可以这么说，但它更为精密，它试图做的，是把所有的动机状态跨时间地、也在社会层面上整合起来，对吧。然后想象它表现为一种本能，某种类似于成熟的本能，对吧，向前走的本能，走出你的舒适区，对吧，而且也许有像契克森米哈赖那样的人把它刻画为心流的吸引力，也许它和下丘脑中由多巴胺介导的探索回路有关。好，但它有它自己的特性。那么在这个故事里，那种本能的特性被刻画的方式，就是冒险之声，它就是那个要求你超越舒适区、走进陌生世界的东西。而这么做的好处在于，你会强化自己，你会成长，对吧。所以不管你现在多优秀，如果你把自己推到边缘，你就会变得比现在更好，这比仅仅停留在你现在的优秀状态是更大的胜利。所以参与
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better win than merely being good like you are now so that would be particip a in that transformative process is a higher form of attainment than mere attainment of any specific goal okay so that's the Call to Adventure that's the call to a quest that's what Gandalf offers Bilbo for example okay God characterizes the consequences of that and this is so cool it when I figured this out it just flattened me it's so interesting God says okay if you God is defined as that which says this by the way if you push yourself beyond your zone of comfort even if it's functioning for you that's Abraham's situation here's what'll happen you'll become you'll live your life in a manner that's a blessing to you so that's a good deal a because Lots the the miserable people you're talking about the depressed people the the trapped people their life isn't a blessing to themselves so what's a pathway to blessing well it's not satiation not in this formulation it's voluntary it's the voluntary Quest and it's characterized by Adventure so
那个转变的过程，是一种比单纯达成任何具体目标更高层次的成就。好，这就是冒险的召唤，这就是踏上征途的召唤，这就是甘道夫对比尔博发出的邀请。好，神刻画了这么做的后果，这太妙了，我搞明白这一点的时候简直被震撼到了，太有意思了。神说，好，如果你——顺便说一句，神就被定义为说出这话的那个存在——如果你把自己推出舒适区，哪怕那个舒适区对你来说运转良好，那就是亚伯拉罕的处境，接下来会发生的是：你会成为，你会以一种对你自己是祝福的方式度过一生。这是个不错的交易，因为你说的那些悲惨的人，那些抑郁的人，那些困住的人，他们的人生对他们自己并不是祝福。那么通往祝福的路径是什么？在这个表述里，它不是满足，它是自愿的，它是自愿的求索，它以冒险为特征。这是第一条交易：你会过上
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that's deal number one you'll live in a life that'll be a blessing to you okay and then God says that's not all that'll happen you'll be a blessing to yourself in a manner that will make you renowned among other people justly that's a good deal because we know that people men in particular are very status oriented partly because their reproductive success is highly correlated with their social status and you know the Psychopaths game that but still it's like Renown is crucially important you want to be the quarterback on the shoulders of your teammates you know so that'll be the second thing that happens and then the same voice says and that's not all you'll be a blessing to yourself and be renowned in a manner that will maximize the probability that you will establish something of lasting value that's a good deal so that's that's stretching across time multi-generationally because God tells Abraham that if he follows the path of Adventure he'll be the father of Nations so what that means is that he'll
对你自己是祝福的人生。好，然后神说，还不止如此，你会以一种让你在他人当中享有声望的方式成为自己的祝福，而且这声望是名副其实的。这是个好交易，因为我们知道人，尤其是男人，非常看重地位，部分原因是他们的生殖成功率与其社会地位高度相关，而且你知道，精神变态者会钻这个空子，但尽管如此，声望依然极其重要，你会想成为被队友举在肩上的那个四分卫，你知道的。所以这是第二件会发生的事。然后同一个声音说，还不止如此，你会以一种最大化你建立起某种持久价值之概率的方式，成为自己的祝福并享有声望。这是个好交易，所以这是跨越时间的、跨越世代的，因为神告诉亚伯拉罕，如果他遵循冒险之路，他将成为万国之父。那意思就是，他将
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establish the pattern of paternal conduct that will maximally that will maximize the success of his offspring in the longest possible run that's so cool this is Success at a distance and over time exactly and then the the final offer is you'll do that in a way that'll bring abundance to everyone else too now so think about what that means biologically this is so cool and I I can't see how it can be wrong it means that if you hearken to the voice that calls you out of your zone of comfort you do that voluntarily so you put yourself on the edge of Adventure you will be following the Instinct that has already evolved to make your life a blessing to yourself to make you successful among other people to maximize your probability of long-term success and to do that in a way that brings abundance to your community and then you think look let's take the contrary hypothesis the contrary hypothesis would be twofold there is no compulsion to Adventure it's like that seems highly improbable or that the compulsion to Adventure isn't
确立一种父亲行为的模式，能最大限度地——能在最长的时间跨度上最大化他后代的成功。太妙了。这就是跨越距离和时间的成功。正是如此。然后最后一条许诺是，你会以一种也给其他所有人带来丰裕的方式做到这一切。那么现在想想这在生物学上意味着什么，这太妙了，我看不出它怎么可能是错的。它意味着，如果你听从那个把你从舒适区里召唤出来的声音，你自愿地这么做，于是你把自己置于冒险的边缘，那么你就是在遵循那个早已演化出来的本能，它会让你的人生成为你自己的祝福，让你在他人中获得成功，最大化你长期成功的概率，并且以一种给你的社群带来丰裕的方式做到这一切。然后你想想，好，我们来看相反的假设。相反的假设有两种形式：要么根本不存在冒险的驱力，那看起来极不可能；要么冒险的驱力与心理和社会的
1:19:34
aligned with psychological and social well-being well what's the what's the chance that the fundamental drive that would facilitate your transformation across time would not be aligned with your psychological integrity and the success of the community like we wouldn't be social animals if that was the case so as far as I can tell that has to be true now that doesn't mean you can get lost in false Adventures that can happen that's what an addiction is or like or or that's what pornography is it's a false Adventure right it's failure to hit the proper Target you might say but that Central Drive to integration across time and communally why wouldn't that be an instinct and then we could cap that with an observation that I also think is self-evidently true once you understand it so imagine that you're a father now this Spirit of Adventure is often characterized paternally right in so far as God's the father in these ancient stories so think about this so when you see your son now it's also true of your
福祉并不一致。可是，那个能促成你跨越时间的转变的根本驱力，竟然与你的心理完整性以及社群的成功不一致，这概率有多大呢？如果真是那样，我们根本就不会是社会性动物。所以就我所知，这一点必然为真。当然，这并不意味着你不可能在虚假的冒险中迷失，那是会发生的，那正是成瘾就是……或者说，色情作品就是这样，它是一种虚假的冒险，对吧，可以说它是没有击中正确的靶心，但那种跨越时间、也在群体层面走向整合的核心驱力——它为什么不能是一种本能呢？然后我们可以再加上一个观察，我认为一旦你理解了它，它也是不言自明的：想象你现在是一位父亲，这种冒险精神常常被以父性的方式来刻画，对吧，因为在这些古老的故事里上帝就是父亲，所以想想看，当你看着你的儿子——对女儿也一样，但我暂时先以儿子为例——当你看着你的儿子，而你
1:20:40
daughter but I'll focus on Sons for the moment when you see your son and you love your son when you see your son pushing himself Beyond his own limits in an adventurous manner if you're a good father you def definitely encourage that right and I would say in so far as you encourage that you are a good father and that would mean that you're the embodiment of that spirit that calls to Adventure that's why Abraham is characterized for example in this story as forging an alliance with the spirit of his ancestors with the deity of his ancestors he's embodying the Call to Adventure and that's what makes him the father whose reproductive Enterprise is successful across the broadest possible span of time I think that's I just can't see how that can be wrong and that's a characterization of the Divine there there's other it it complexifies a because what what the stories are trying to do is to give you an image of what that integrating personality might be like and it's sophisticated so a single
爱你的儿子，当你看到他以一种富有冒险精神的方式突破自己的极限时，如果你是个好父亲，你肯定会鼓励他，对吧，而我会说，就你鼓励他这一点而言，你就是个好父亲，这也就意味着你是那种召唤人去冒险的精神的化身。这就是为什么在这个故事里，亚伯拉罕被刻画成与他祖先的精神、与他祖先的神缔结了盟约，他体现的正是那种冒险的召唤，而正是这一点让他成为那个生育事业能在最长的时间跨度上取得成功的父亲。我觉得……我实在看不出这怎么会是错的，而这就是对神性的一种刻画。还有别的……这让事情变得更复杂，因为这些故事想做的，是给你一个关于那种整合性人格可能是什么样子的形象，而它非常精微，所以单一的刻画是不够的。所以在
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characterization is insufficient so in the story of Noah God is this personality is characterized quite differently so Noah is presented as a man who's wise in his Generations which means that for his time and place he's moral and reputable so he's the sort of guy that people would go to for advice because he's lived a life that's emblematic of his wisdom let's say okay now a voice comes to him and says batting down the hatches there mate trouble's coming okay so so here's the hypothesis the hypothesis is the voice that calls to the wise to prepare in times of trouble is a manifestation of the Divine and it's the same as the voice that calls the unwilling to Adventure that's the monotheistic hypothesis and so you can see what the imagination is doing is agglomerating these different characterizations of high aim insisting that there's an integrated Unity behind them and then trying to conceptualize that integrated Unity across time and so and I think that's done I think that's done with radical success in the
挪亚的故事里，上帝这个人格被刻画得相当不同。挪亚被描述为一个在他那个世代中有智慧的人，也就是说，就他所处的时代和地方而言，他是有道德、有声望的，所以他是那种人们会去向他请教的人，因为他过的生活本身就是他智慧的写照。好，这时有个声音来对他说：伙计，赶紧把舱口封好，麻烦要来了。好，那么假设就是这样：在危难之时召唤智者去做准备的那个声音，是神性的一种显现，而它和召唤那些不情愿的人去冒险的声音是同一个——这就是一神论的假设。所以你能看到，想象力在做的事，就是把这些不同的高远目标的刻画聚合起来，坚持认为它们背后有一个整合的统一体，然后试图跨越时间去把那个整合的统一体概念化。我认为这件事在圣经这个文库里做得……我认为做得极其成功。
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biblical library that the culmination of the library of stories is the impressionistic representation of this integrating pattern and I think that's what people call on when they're engaging in a religious Enterprise that is radically successful like that happened in the case of your friend right so he got a new personality and that new personality had different incentive structure and so that just superseded the addiction it's almost as if I mean I realize that for people listening it might not seem like this but to us his friends who had seen him try so hard in the context of people he truly deeply cares about more than anybody in the world his children his wife it was almost like he got a brain transplant it was it was astonishing how does he account for it like if you asked him like okay you had every reason to change and yet you didn't and then all of a sudden you did like how does he understand that he uses very um uh Christian religious language he said that he felt Jesus's love for him and he
这一整套故事的文库，其高潮就是对这种整合模式的一种印象派式的呈现，而我认为这正是人们在从事宗教事业时所呼求的东西。当它取得极其成功的效果时，就像你朋友身上发生的那样，对吧，他获得了一种新的人格，而这种新人格有着不同的激励结构，于是那就直接取代了成瘾。这几乎就像是……我知道对听众来说可能感觉不是这样，但对我们这些朋友来说，我们看着他那么努力地挣扎，而且是在面对他真正深爱、超过世上任何人的那些人的情况下——他的孩子、他的妻子——那几乎就像是他换了个大脑，实在令人震惊。那他自己怎么解释这件事？比如你问他：好吧，你本来有一万个理由去改变，可你就是没改，然后突然之间你就改了，他自己是怎么理解的？他用的是很……嗯……基督教的宗教语言，他说他感受到了耶稣对他的爱，而且他
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saw an image of who he could become this was important perhaps no doubt not just perhaps but no doubt of who he could become that was worth it and he had the adequate social support within this place and so there was reinforcement yeah but what's what's remarkable is that he was able to take that outside of this place it it was a residential facility out of this place and carry it with him and to this day he is Rock Solid okay so in that domain and I will say in in all the other domains of his life too extremely successful as an artist I don't want to out him you know extremely successful as a as a commercial artist and happy and in service and um just seems like he got a brain trans right so there's a mystery there that's kind of threefold one is um what the hell did he mean that he realized that Jesus Christ loved him right that's okay what do you mean by that and then somehow that's associated with the vision he developed of who he could be if he was everything he could be there's a relationship
看见了一个自己可以成为的样子的形象。这很重要，也许……不，不只是也许，而是毫无疑问，那个他可以成为的样子是值得的。而且他在那个地方得到了足够的社会支持，所以有正向强化。是的，但真正了不起的是，他能够把那份东西带出那个地方——那是一个住院式的康复机构——带出那个地方并一直带在身上。直到今天他都稳如磐石。好，在那个领域里，而且我要说，在他生活的其他所有领域也是如此。他作为艺术家极其成功——我不想暴露他的身份——作为一名商业艺术家极其成功，而且快乐、乐于服务他人，就好像他真的换了个大脑。所以这里面有个三重的谜。第一个是：他说他意识到耶稣基督爱他，这到底是什么意思？对吧，好，你说的到底是什么意思？然后不知怎么的，这又和他所形成的那个愿景有关，就是关于如果他活出全部的可能，他能成为什么样的人。这两件事之间是有关系的。然后第三个谜就是
1:25:15
between those two things and then there's this third mystery is the culmination of those two phenomena freedom of his addiction even out of the context of the center that's right very difficult to understand that but you know we know think about it this way if you're possessed by rage different phenomena have dopaminergic cache to you than if you're possessed by like uh sexual desire like obviously right absolutely right so so the idea that a given stimuli produces a given motivational response is incorrect because that's framework dependent right and then most so I think one of the best ways to understand a motivational Drive is that a motivational Drive grips the target it establishes the Target right and it's not it may it may increase the probability that certain action patterns will make themselves manifest that would be the kind of the compulsive element but fundamentally what it's doing is changing the Target that rearranges the perceptual landscape and it transforms the emotions because now if your target
这两种现象的最终结果：他摆脱了成瘾，甚至在离开那个中心的环境之后依然如此。没错，这非常难以理解。但你知道，我们……这样想想看：如果你被愤怒攫住，那么不同的现象对你具有的多巴胺价值，就和你被性欲攫住时不一样，这很明显，对吧。完全正确。所以「某个特定刺激会引发某个特定动机反应」这个想法是不对的，因为那是依赖于框架的，对吧。所以我认为，理解一种动机驱力最好的方式之一，就是：动机驱力抓住了目标，它确立了目标，对吧。它并不是……它可能会提高某些行为模式出现的概率，那大概就是所谓强迫性的成分，但它根本上做的事情是改变目标。这会重新排列知觉的图景，也会转化情绪，因为现在如果你的目标
1:26:25
is there things that lead you there are dopaminergically relevant if your target is there things that lead you there are relevant same underlying emotion but the the stimuli so to speak that give rise to the emotion are radically different so now he has a different orientation and aim and so the incentive structure of his psyche is radically transformed now we know that can happen because that happens to you when you move from one motivated state to another I think in 12-step programs they they allow the steps to be Milestones I mean there's clearly a dopaminergic component I hope people understand that dopamine is dumb in fact dopamine isn't Dumb dopamine has no intelligence at all it's just a currency of motivation and reward and what which is why it can be gained by cocaine which is why it can be gained by cocaine or or most anything that can you know uh you know feret its way into the hypothalamic system and I I hope people picked up on what you said before because um it's so important that as one moves
在那边，那么通向那边的东西就具有多巴胺意义；如果你的目标在另一边，那么通向那边的东西才有意义。底层的情绪是一样的，但可以说，引发这种情绪的刺激却截然不同。所以现在他有了不同的取向和目标，于是他心灵的激励结构就被彻底改变了。而我们知道这是可能发生的，因为当你从一种动机状态转到另一种动机状态时，你身上就会发生这种事。我想在十二步戒瘾项目里，他们让每一步都成为里程碑。这里面显然有多巴胺的成分。我希望大家明白，多巴胺是「笨」的——其实说多巴胺笨也不对，多巴胺根本没有任何智能，它只是一种动机和奖赏的货币，这也是为什么它可以被可卡因所劫持，这也是为什么它可以被可卡因或者几乎任何能够……嗯……钻进下丘脑系统的东西所劫持。我希望大家注意到你刚才说的话，因为那实在太重要了：当一个人朝着目标前进时，多巴胺会上升，
08脱靶即罪：注意、元目标与登山宝训
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toward a Target dopamine increases and root to that Target I'm I'm rephrasing what you said before you said it wonderfully I just want to make sure people understand that as that dopamine increases the probability that your perception will go to something other than the target decreases exponentially as you get closer and closer you get more and more dopamine the greater the elevation dopamine the lower the probability that you'll engage in any other p of self it's like it's almost or the or personality type other than the one that you're engaged in in pursuit of this Behavior will emerge not least because as you approach successfully the probability of ultimate success is obviously increasing so it makes perfect sense that you would narrow and focus right you run faster as you as you see the Finish Line right faster and faster I this concept of sin as missing the Target or this definition of sin I think is incredibly important hamartia is the Greek word and L it's literally an archery term but it's also the word for
在通往那个目标的路上。我是在复述你刚才说的，你说得非常好，我只是想确保大家听懂了：随着多巴胺上升，你的注意力转向目标之外的东西的概率会呈指数级下降。你越靠近，多巴胺就越多；多巴胺水平越高，你去做其他任何事的概率就越低，也就是说，除了你正在追求这个行为时所处的那一部分自我，或者说那种人格类型之外，其他的都不会浮现出来。这不仅是因为，当你成功地接近目标时，最终成功的概率显然在上升，所以你会收窄、会聚焦，这完全说得通，对吧。你看到终点线时会跑得更快，对吧，越来越快。我觉得把「罪」理解成没射中靶心，或者说这样定义「罪」，是极其重要的。希腊语里的词是 hamartia，它字面上就是个射箭术语，而古希伯来语里表示
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sin in ancient Hebrew is also an archery term and so and there's other languages where that's the case but it it's really important to understand that that is that notion is predicated on this target seeking phys psychophysiology and that that's unbelievably deeply built into us as you pointed out you know our eyes are Target established well it's so important to us that we infer aim from gays right and it's more than that not only do we infer aim from gaze we mimic the psychophysiological state of the Target that we're watching as a consequence of her inference of aim from gaze so if I can see what you're looking at then I can occupy the same psychophysiological state that you do and that's the basis of my understanding this is so important and I'm uh there's something that I've never talked about on this or any other podcast which is that in humans we have a massive expansion of an area of the frontal cortex called The frontal eye Fields so there's circuitry deep in the brain if you want to look it up it's Superior
「罪」的词也是个射箭术语，还有别的语言也是这样。但真正重要的是要明白，这个概念是建立在这种寻找目标的心理生理机制之上的，而这一点深深地内建在我们身上，深到令人难以置信。就像你指出的，我们的眼睛就是为目标而设的。而且这对我们太重要了，以至于我们会从目光中推断意图，对吧。而且还不止如此：我们不仅从目光中推断意图，我们还会模仿我们所注视的那个目标的心理生理状态，这正是从目光推断意图的结果。所以如果我能看到你在看什么，那我就能占据和你一样的心理生理状态，而这正是我理解你的基础。这太重要了。而且我……有件事我在这个播客或任何其他播客上都从没讲过，就是在人类身上，额叶皮层有一个区域发生了巨大的扩张，叫做「额叶眼动区」。大脑深处有一些神经回路，如果你想去查的话，叫上丘（superior colliculus），在其他物种里也叫顶盖（tectum），意思是「屋顶」，它是中脑的顶盖等等，这些回路会产生
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culus it's also called the tectum in other species it means roof it's the roof of the midbrain Etc that generate reflexive eye movements you stimulate in there it's like a machine in fact a colleague of mine who's now retired at Stanford Eric nudson who did some beautiful work on neuroplasticity um was describing experiment where they take out the frontal cortex of these owls owls are because they um you know they don't have much movements they move their head almost you know almost all the way around right we've all seen that get and they use this for for for homing in on their targets the owl or a monkey or a human in the absence of a prefrontal cortex or suppression of prefrontal Cortex becomes like a machine you click here they look there you click here they look there puppies are like this kittens are like this everything's a stimulus why because there isn't that top- down inhibition of those reflexes in humans we have an area that's why a a cat with no braid is hyp exploratory right
反射性的眼动。你在那里给电刺激，它就像台机器一样。事实上，我有位现已从斯坦福退休的同事 Eric Knudsen，他在神经可塑性方面做过非常漂亮的研究，他描述过一个实验，就是把这些猫头鹰的额叶皮层切除。猫头鹰之所以被用来做研究，是因为……嗯，它们的眼球活动幅度不大，它们几乎是靠转头，差不多能转一整圈，对吧，我们都见过那个画面，它们用这个来锁定目标。猫头鹰也好、猴子也好、人也好，在没有前额叶皮层，或者前额叶皮层被抑制的情况下，就会变得像台机器：你在这儿一按，它就看这儿；你在那儿一按，它就看那儿。小狗就是这样，小猫也是这样，一切都是刺激。为什么？因为缺少那种自上而下对这些反射的抑制。而在人类身上，我们有一个区域……这就是为什么去皮层的猫会极度探索，对吧，什么都是目标，什么都是目标，什么都是目标，而且
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everything's a Target everything's a targ everything is a Target and there's no context dependent learning right I love that you gave the example of the desate cats um they even can do fictive motion they can walk on a treadmill and it's like with no cortex it's amazing makes you rethink the cortex that's for sure and humans have these frontal eye fields which are an evolved area they're present in other species too but they're massively expanded in humans so this is a a cortical area a frontal cortical area devot oted to controlling Gaye and the context and control of Gaye so it no longer becomes just a reflex that you can suppress as in the case with an adult cat versus a kitten or a dog versus a puppy the frontal eye Fields actually regulate all sorts of context dependent like oh like he's looking at me directly is it aggressive yeah um well then maybe I'll activate my aggression or maybe I'll brace my defenses or wow she's uh we came to this party together but she seem super interested in like directing
没有依情境而定的学习，对吧。我很喜欢你举去皮层猫的例子，嗯，它们甚至能做出虚拟的运动，能在跑步机上走，而且是在没有皮层的情况下，太惊人了，这真让人重新思考皮层的作用，这是肯定的。而人类有这些额叶眼动区，这是一个演化出来的区域，其他物种也有，但在人类身上被极大地扩张了。所以这是一个皮层区域，一个专门负责控制目光以及目光所处情境和调控的额叶皮层区域。所以它不再只是一个你可以压抑的反射，就像成年猫和小猫、成年狗和小狗之间的区别那样。额叶眼动区实际上调节着各种依情境而定的反应，比如「哦，他在直勾勾地看着我，这是挑衅吗？」是啊，嗯，那也许我就会激活我的攻击性，或者也许我会加强防备；又或者「哇，她……我们是一起来这个派对的，可她好像对别人特别感兴趣」，从她
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her gaze how are we inferring this sometimes it's body language sometimes it's this sometimes he looked at her there are all these memes about this right you know right the famous the famous look over the shoulder meme that seems to have taken over the internet from time to time with the appropriate facial response exactly so humans have an if massively expanded notion of what gaze is and our ability to control gaze and understanding of gaze I just so when when you raise this this idea that when you raise this fact rather about gays defining the target it'll end that looking at others' gaze allows us to understand what they are defining as the target we starting to get get into Notions of theory of mind and things of that sort well so so what that implies in keeping with our previous conversation is that as you mature and your cortex integrates and you become cortically dominant the targets of your gaze become voluntary right this is a big deal because it means that you can concentrate on the distal let's say the
目光的方向看出来的。我们是怎么推断出来的？有时是肢体语言，有时是这个，有时是他看了她一眼。关于这个有一大堆梗图，对吧，你知道的，就是那个著名的「回头看」表情包，它时不时就会席卷整个互联网，再配上相应的表情。完全正确。所以人类对「目光是什么」有一套被极大扩展的概念，以及我们控制目光和理解目光的能力。所以当你提出这个想法——或者说提出这个事实——目光定义了目标，而观察他人的目光让我们能理解他们把什么定义为目标时，我们就开始进入心智理论之类的概念了。嗯，那么这意味着什么呢？延续我们之前的对话，这意味着随着你成熟、你的皮层整合起来、你变得以皮层为主导，你目光的目标就变成自主可控的了，对吧。这非常关键，因为这意味着你可以专注于远端的东西——比如说时间上遥远的东西——而牺牲眼前的东西。所以你知道，如果你走在街上，
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temporary temporally distal at the expense of the proximal so you know if if you're walking down the street and you hear a loud and sudden noise behind you you'll do an anti-predator Crouch and then turn and you'll do that essentially automatically so so so curl up turt and and you turn you turn to the place where your stereoscopic audition has indicated that the noise emanated from right and so and that's automatic that's the control of the eye gate gaze and and well and and bodily posture by those underly yeah this is a super has a map of of auditory world so when you hear something to right you turn to your right right right and you do that before you think right okay so that's a that's an activation of the eye felds let's say by these underlying motivational systems that have this personality like autonomy but you can you can you can Orient your part of the religious Enterprise is to orient your eyes heavenward what does that mean well you can think about it it means to search out the
忽然听到身后有巨大而突然的响声，你会做出一个躲避掠食者的蜷缩动作然后转身，而且基本上是自动完成的，就是先蜷缩，然后转身，你会转向你的立体听觉所指示的声音发出的那个位置，对吧，这是自动的。这就是由那些底层系统控制的目光，以及身体姿势。是的，这是个超级……（上丘）有一张听觉世界的地图，所以当你听到右边有动静，你就转向右边，没错没错，而且你是在思考之前就做了，对吧。好，所以那是一种额叶眼动区的激活，可以说是被这些底层动机系统激活的，这些系统有着类似人格般的自主性。但你可以……你可以调整你的……宗教事业的一部分，就是把你的眼睛朝向天上。那是什么意思呢？你可以这样理解：它意味着去寻找那颗
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north star that navigates for you uniring regardless of the situation at hand imagine you could progress towards a Target in a manner that made all the potential targets that you could progress toward more likely it's a meta Target you said that's what happened to your friend right is not only did he dispense with his addiction but all of the things enter other Enterprises that he was associating that that that he was pursuing in his life became more effective it's almost like and I it is as if every goal was like elevated right and it's funny because for the first couple of months that I was interacting with him I thought okay okay like like he's different and and I thought you know like most people would you know perhaps would think like all right let's see let's see but this has been four years now he's very he's very consistent with his um with his program he you know he's involved in a program that keeps him on track right um but he's he's elevated and he's not talking above people it's like he's elevated but
北极星，不管眼前处境如何，它都始终不变地为你导航。想象一下，你可以朝着一个目标前进，而这种前进方式会让你可能追求的所有其他目标都更容易实现——那是一个元目标。你说过这正是你朋友身上发生的事，对吧，他不仅摆脱了成瘾，而且他生活中所参与、所追求的其他各项事业也都变得更有成效了。这几乎就像……确实就好像每一个目标都被提升了一个层次，对吧。有意思的是，在我和他接触的头几个月里，我心想：好吧好吧，他是不一样了。然后我也像大多数人那样想，你知道，也许会想：行吧，咱们再看看，再看看。但现在已经过去四年了，他非常、非常稳定地坚持他的……嗯……他的那套方案，你知道，他参加了一个能让他保持在正轨上的项目，对吧。但他整个人是被提升了，而且他并不是在居高临下地对人说话，就是说他境界提升了，但仍然很接地气。你和他说话时，他
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he's grounded when you talk to him he's not kind of off some other place he's actually very very present yeah and even his text messages are very much of like what's going on today you know asking questions that are very much of the now yeah and it's been a a remarkable thing to observe well because he was about as down in his addiction and had so much to lose and had um essentially risked it over and over over and over to the point where you know I I didn't think it was ever going to turn around and most and all of his friends thought the same and his wife of course is delighted and his kids are delighted of course and um I could say this without revealing because no one knows I'm Godfather to his son and his son is thriving which is wonderful to see and I just think of sometimes about how badly it could have gone the other way yeah and it's fantastic it's like it's nothing short of spectacular okay so so let me let me put that into a context of let's say an archetypal story okay so I did a course
不会心不在焉地飘到别处去，他其实非常非常地在场。是啊，甚至连他发的短信都非常关注今天发生了什么，你知道，问的问题都非常贴近当下。是啊，看着这一切真是一件了不起的事。因为他当年在成瘾里跌得几乎不能再深了，而且他有那么多东西可以失去，却……嗯，基本上是一次又一次地拿这些去冒险，一次又一次，到了一个地步，你知道，我当时根本不认为这事还能扭转过来，而且大多数……他所有的朋友也都这么想。当然，他妻子非常高兴，他的孩子们也非常高兴。还有，嗯，我可以说这一点而不会暴露他，因为没人知道：我是他儿子的教父，而他儿子现在发展得很好，这看着真是太好了。我有时会想，这事本来可能会走向多么糟糕的另一面。是啊，所以这真是太棒了，简直可以说是……非常了不起。好，那我把这个放到一个原型故事的语境里来讲吧。我之前讲过一门课，
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for Peterson Academy on The Sermon on the Mount And The Sermon on the Mount is a it's a Str it's a metag goal strategy it's very practical it's very very practical and it emerges out of the biblical tradition in a very grounded manner it's a logical extension of the biblical ethical precursors so what Christ says to his followers in the course of The Sermon on the Mount is first Orient your eyes upward okay so that's in alignment with the notion that the first born is to be consecrated to God there's a meaning to that and and the meaning is something like this imagine that your life consists of a sequence of episodes okay an episode has a beginning and a middle and an end the beginning sets the frame for the episode so at the beginning of an Enterprise you want to you want to lift your eyes heavenward so you establish the highest possible goal so that that constitutes the frame of perception for that episode that's the idea that's why the firstborn should be consecrated to God so for example in to think about it prosaically
是给彼得森学院（Peterson Academy）讲的《登山宝训》。《登山宝训》其实是一套……是一种元目标（metagoal）策略，它非常实用，非常非常实用，而且它是以一种非常扎实的方式从圣经传统中生长出来的，是圣经伦理前身的一个合乎逻辑的延伸。所以基督在《登山宝训》中对他的追随者说的第一件事是：先把你的眼睛朝上看。这正好和「头生的要归给神」这个观念是一致的。这里面是有含义的，那个含义大概是这样的：想象你的人生由一连串的情节（episode）构成。一个情节有开头、中间和结尾。开头为整个情节设定了框架。所以在一项事业的开端，你要把眼睛抬向天上，也就是确立一个尽可能最高的目标，让它构成那个情节的知觉框架。这就是那个意思，这也是为什么头生的要归给神。举个例子，说得直白一点：在我们坐下来录这期播客之前——因为我们录过很多期了——我们努力让自己进入
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before we sat down for our podcast because we've done many podcasts we we strive to inhabit the framework that will make the podcast most radically successful now you could imagine that that could be subordinated to either of our proximal desire for an increase in short-term personal Fame right or we could try to dominate each other in the conversation or we could Orient ourselves properly and we could do what we could to pursue the track towards Revelation so to speak and we could Elevate our conversation in that manner okay and that would set the frame for the conversation and the good podcasters always do that right they're not playing games or if they're playing games it's of the highest possible order it's a quest yeah okay quest for what enlightenment for truth right for Mutual understanding and then maybe for the education of those who are participating all right so Christ says first Orient your eyes upward right that's to love God above all so whatever that upward Divinity is you establish an allegiance
那个能让这期播客获得最彻底成功的框架。你可以想象，这件事本来可能被降格，去服务于我们各自想要短期个人名气的近端欲望，对吧；或者我们可以试图在对话里压倒对方；又或者我们可以把自己摆正，尽我们所能去追求那条通向启示的路径，我们可以用那种方式提升我们的对话。好，那就会为这场对话设定框架。好的播客主持人总是这么做的，对吧。他们不是在玩游戏；或者说，如果他们在玩游戏，那也是最高层级的游戏。那是一场探求（quest）。对，好，探求什么？开悟，追求真理，对吧，追求彼此的理解，然后也许是为了教育那些参与其中的人。好，所以基督说，首先把你的眼睛朝上看，对吧，那就是爱神胜过一切。所以无论那个向上的神性是什么，你都与
1:37:38
with that and you allow that to determine your perceptions and your motivations next operate under the assumption that other people like you participate in that nature of that utmost aim and treat them that way next concentrate on the moment right right and that's exactly right because it's exactly right because when you specify your aim the pathway makes itself manifest otherwise you could never use your senses to orient you'd never get anywhere right so if you aim upward to the best of your ability then the pathway upward is what will make itself manifest in front of you then you have to attend to it and so then you get this weird perverse optimality which is you're focused on the longest temporal scale and the highest possible elevation and you can make most use of what's right in front of you and that the implication in The Sermon on the Mount is that there's no difference between that and participating in life eternal as it unfolds in the moment and I think that's that's seems to me to be exactly right
它建立某种忠诚关系，并且让它来决定你的知觉和你的动机。接下来，在这样的假设下行事：别人和你一样，也分有那个至高目标的本性，并且照这样去对待他们。再接下来，专注于当下。对对，这完全正确。之所以完全正确，是因为当你明确了自己的目标，道路就会自行显现出来；否则你根本没法用你的感官来定向，你哪儿也去不了，对吧。所以如果你尽你所能把目标朝上定，那么向上的道路就会在你面前自行显现，然后你就必须去留意它。于是你就得到了一种奇怪的、看似悖论的最优性：你关注的是最长的时间尺度和尽可能高的高度，同时你又能最大限度地利用眼前的东西。而《登山宝训》里的含义是，这和在当下展开的永生中有份，两者之间没有区别。我觉得这……在我看来这完全说得通。
1:38:55
it's exactly right and so you know I I was I was thinking of that because you said your friends all of your friends Endeavors had become elevated so imagine that one problem you might want to solve is what your goals should be but a much deeper problem would be how do you conceptualize your goals in relationship to one another across the broadest span of time and person so that every goal has the highest probability of succeeding that would be like the pursuit of a metagal I would say that's what defines the religious Enterprise there's another variant of that for example so a variant of that would be not how do you solve the problem of Any Given thing that terrifies you but how do you solve the problem of the class of things that terrify you and the dragon fight mythology is the solution to that problem so the attitude there is you adopt The Stance of voluntary what a voluntary approach in the face of Terror because that's the best meta strategy right and that's the strategy that works to protect you across the
完全正确。所以，你知道，我之所以想到这个，是因为你说你的朋友们，你所有朋友的事业都被提升了。所以想象一下：你可能想解决的一个问题是「我的目标该是什么」，但一个更深的问题是：你如何把你的各个目标彼此之间的关系，放在最广阔的时间跨度和人群范围里去构想，使得每一个目标都有最高的成功概率。那就像是在追求一个元目标。我会说，那正是宗教事业的定义。还有另一种变体，比如说，一个变体是：不是「你如何解决某一件让你恐惧的具体事情」，而是「你如何解决让你恐惧的那一整类事情」。而屠龙神话就是这个问题的解法。所以那里的态度是，你采取一种主动自愿的姿态——在恐惧面前主动迎上去，因为那是最好的元策略，对吧。而那正是能在尽可能大范围的危险情境中保护你的策略。这就是我们作为
1:40:03
largest possible array of dangerous situations this is what we learned in as clinical psychologists with exposure therapy right you find the particulars of what someone is afraid of that turns out to be somewhat irrelevant you teach people to voluntarily confront what they're avoiding and that doesn't make them them less afraid it makes them more competent and braver and that generalizes right and so yeah the religious Pursuit is the pursuit of of metag goals in relationship to positive and negative emotion that's a good way of thinking about it I'd like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors element element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't that means the electrolytes sodium magnesium and pottassium in the correct ratios but no sugar we should all know that proper hydration is critical for optimal brain and body function in fact even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance to a considerable degree
临床心理学家在暴露疗法里学到的，对吧。你去找出一个人具体害怕什么，结果发现那反而不太重要。你教人主动去面对他们一直回避的东西，这并不会让他们不那么害怕，而是让他们更有能力、更勇敢，而且这是可以泛化的，对吧。所以，是的，宗教性的追求就是在追求与正面和负面情绪相关的元目标。这是个很好的思考方式。我想先稍作休息，感谢我们的赞助商之一 Element。Element 是一款电解质饮料，该有的都有，不该有的一样没有。也就是说，它含有电解质钠、镁和钾，比例恰当，但不含糖。我们都应该知道，适当的补水对于大脑和身体的最佳功能至关重要。事实上，哪怕只是轻微脱水，也会在相当程度上削弱你的认知和身体表现。同样重要的是，你不只要补水，还要摄入足够
1:41:02
it's also important that you're not just hydrated but that you get adequate amounts of electrolytes in the right ratios drinking a packet of element dissolved in water makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate amounts of hydration and electrolytes to make sure that I'm getting proper amounts of both I dissolve one packet of element in about 16 to 32 ounces of water when I wake up in the morning and I drink that basically first thing in the morning I'll also drink a packet of element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes there are a bunch of different great tasting flavors of element I like the watermelon I like the raspberry I like the Citrus basically I like all of them if you'd like to try element you can go to drink element.com huberman laab to claim a free element sample pack with the purchase of any element drink mix again that's drink element.com huberman
量、比例正确的电解质。把一包 Element 溶在水里喝，可以非常轻松地确保你摄入足够的水分和电解质。为了确保这两者我都摄入充足，我早上醒来时会把一包Element 溶在大约 16 到 32 盎司的水里，基本上一起床就先喝掉。在做任何体育锻炼的时候，我也会喝一包溶在水里的 Element，尤其是在炎热的天气里，我出很多汗、流失大量水分和电解质的时候。Element 有很多种好喝的口味，我喜欢西瓜味，喜欢覆盆子味，喜欢柑橘味，基本上我全都喜欢。如果你想试试 Element，可以访问 drinkelement.com/hubermanlab，购买任意一款 Element 饮料粉，即可领取一份免费的 Element 试用装。再说一遍，drinkelement.com/hubermanlab，领取免费试用装。我很喜欢「向上看」这个想法，
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laab to claim a free sample P pack I love this idea of looking upward and defining or at least having a sense that there's a um internalization of the greatest possible outcome and when I say greatest both for ones but also for the community right yeah that's life more abundant or that's that's the symbolic terminology or life in eternity both of those are the same thing so imagine you're fighting with your wife okay now you're dominated by rage now the advantage to that is you're ready and but the disadvantage is you're going to strive for proximal Victory okay now you don't want to be a pushover that's a mistake so then what could you do instead you could pause and you could remember okay if this could rectify itself in the best possible manner what would that look like well it's it's complicated right you don't want your wife to be defeated and you don't want to be defeated and you want to solve the problem but you don't want to sweep it under the rug you want to solve it in a way that solved that works across time
以及去定义、或者至少有一种感觉，就是把最好的可能结果内化。而我说「最好」的时候，既是对个人而言，也是对整个共同体而言，对吧。对，那就是「更丰盛的生命」，那是象征性的说法，或者说永恒中的生命，这两者其实是一回事。所以想象你正在和你的妻子吵架。此刻你被愤怒支配着。这么做的好处是你处于备战状态，但坏处是你会去争取一个近端的胜利。好，你当然也不想当个任人摆布的软柿子，那也是个错误。那你可以怎么做呢？你可以暂停一下，然后想起来：好，如果这件事能以最好的方式得到化解，那会是什么样子？嗯，这很复杂，对吧。你不希望你妻子被打败，也不希望自己被打败，你想解决这个问题，但你又不想把它扫到地毯底下。你想用一种能长期有效的方式解决它，
1:43:02
that benefits your relationship in an upward Manner and you have to make sure that you're not hijacked by that hypothalamic circuit or personality as you've you will be you if if you don't alter your aim you will be because you need to substitute you got to think I'd really like to win this like I'd seriously like to win this battle it's like no you need something better than that Victory and that would be the a victory that would deepen and enrich your relationship and help it grow across time and then you can remember that it's like I'm going to listen even though I think my wife is wrong I'm going to listen and I'm going to see if I can find a pathway in the argument that makes our relationship better and then you think now you have to really want that because if you really want that if you if you got that Vision fleshed out properly you'll want that more than you'll want to win and and then you might say well why it's like because it's a better deal so there's one of Christ's Parables where
一种能让你们的关系向上提升的方式。而你必须确保自己没有被那个下丘脑回路、或者说那个人格给劫持——如果你不改变你的目标，你就一定会被劫持。因为你需要有东西来替代它。你会想：我真的很想赢，我是真的很想赢下这场争吵。而这时你需要比那个胜利更好的东西，那就是一种能加深和丰富你们关系、并让它随时间成长的胜利。然后你就能记起来：我要去倾听，哪怕我认为我妻子是错的，我也要倾听，我要看看能不能在这场争吵里找到一条让我们关系变得更好的路径。然后你会想，你现在必须真的想要那个东西，因为如果你真的想要它，如果你把那个愿景真正具体地勾勒出来，你对它的渴望就会超过你想赢的渴望。然后你可能会问：为什么呢？因为那是一笔更划算的买卖。基督有一个比喻讲到「重价的珠子」，
09时间尺度、熵减与性的商品化
1:43:57
he talks about a pearl of great price which is the Pearl that a rich man would sell everything he owns to possess and it's it's something like a reference to that it's like why would you ever attain a proximal Victory if you could attain an ultimate Victory that's the battle let's say between the salvation of the soul and the victory in sin that's how the religious language would portray it well you can win a local Victory and it looks like it it looks like you win but if you forgo the ultimate game that's not a victory that's a defeat obviously it might even be a worse defeat than if you lost absolutely I I've been um spouting off on social media and podcast for a while now that any big inflection in dopamine that isn't preceded by a lot of effort to generate that dopamine inflection is very dangerous think drugs think pornography think highly processed food Foods think anything that you know creates this B big sense of indulgence and pleasure without any effort is running countercurrent to our
就是那种一个富人愿意变卖所有家产去换取的珍珠。这大概就是在说那个意思：如果你能得到终极的胜利，你为什么要去拿一个近端的胜利呢？这就是那场战斗，比方说，是灵魂得救与在罪中取胜之间的战斗——用宗教语言就是这么表述的。你可以赢得一场局部的胜利，看起来像是赢了，但如果你因此放弃了终极的那盘棋，那就不是胜利，那是失败。显然，那甚至可能比你输了还要糟糕。完全正确。我一直在社交媒体和播客上反复说：任何一次大的多巴胺飙升，如果之前没有付出大量努力去换取那次飙升，都是非常危险的。想想毒品，想想色情内容，想想高度加工的食品，想想任何不需要付出努力就能带来强烈放纵感和快感的东西，这些都是在逆着我们的进化线路走。那你可能会说，好吧，那我们该怎么办？没有相应的牺牲，就没有奖赏。
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evolutionary wiring now you could say well okay so what are we supposed to do move in C no reward no reward without commencer sacrifice that's right that's of some sort Y and the other issue and it's coming up again and again today and I love that it is is this notion of the temporal domain of rewards that exist over multiple time scales or broader time scales one of the things that I feel truly lucky for um is the fact that I went the path of science where we were uh chuckling about this earlier um you know a project could take a year then you have to restart because that project went nowhere and then you finish the project you submit a paper the review I mean the reward schedule in science could take four years it's not just about getting a degree like getting papers through sometimes took a year sometimes took two years you know um sometimes things didn't go well and you had to publish in a journal that you wouldn't have wanted to or sometimes you had to abandon projects altogether so my
对，就是某种形式的牺牲。还有另一个问题，今天反复出现，我很喜欢它反复出现——就是奖赏的时间维度这个概念，奖赏可以存在于多个时间尺度上，或者说更宽广的时间尺度上。有一件事我觉得自己真的很幸运，就是我走了科研这条路。我们之前还在笑这件事：你知道，一个项目可能要做一年，然后你得推倒重来，因为那个项目毫无进展；然后你做完项目，投出一篇论文，评审……我是说，科学里的奖赏周期可能长达四年。这不只是拿个学位的事，发表论文有时要一年，有时要两年，你知道的，有时候事情进展不顺，你不得不发在一个你本来不愿意发的期刊上；有时候你干脆得放弃整个项目。所以我的奖赏系统是在很多种时间尺度上被训练出来的：短期、中期、长期。
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reward system was trained up on lots of time scales short medium longtime scales as I've moved into podcasting the the uh the temporal Loops are shorter they're faster um but you know nonetheless you know we we do long long form content and um but you know I think platforms like X I think are wonderful if used appropriately I think it's especially great nowadays frankly um and Instagram Etc they're very useful but they train us and I imagine they've trained the the young brains that were weaned on them cuz I wasn't but that were weaned on them for fast temporal yeah uh time scales this isn't like playing this isn't like playing a long poker game this is like playing the slot machine over and over and over right um it's not like a 4day tournament complete with intermittent random reinforcement which is what happens when something goes viral unpredictably right right it's really yeah and and then of course we have this notion in this country that you know in any moment it could be a Rags to Riches or over you know some you
后来我转做播客，那些时间回路变短了，变快了。不过话说回来，我们做的是长篇内容。但我觉得像 X 这样的平台，如果用得得当，是很棒的，坦白说现在尤其棒。还有 Instagram 之类的，它们非常有用，但它们训练我们——我猜它们也训练了那些从小就泡在里面长大的年轻大脑，我不是那样长大的，但他们是——训练出了快速的时间尺度。这不像是在打一场漫长的扑克，这更像是在拉老虎机，一次又一次，对吧。这不像是一场为期四天的锦标赛，里面还带有间歇性的随机强化，而那正是某个东西不可预测地爆红时会发生的事，对吧。对对，确实如此。然后当然，我们这个国家还有一种观念，就是在任何一个瞬间，都可能发生一夜暴富、或者一夜成名之类的事情，
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know overnight Fame type thing that exists as a possibility in our culture that in a way that it hadn't prior so I think that one of the things that could be useful just venturing a hypothesis here is that young and older people could um take a look at their life and ask you know over what variation of time scales do I derive reward yeah defin you know training for a marathon is a is a longer time scale that's also a Hallmark of maturity yeah School degree Etc um in business the time skills are sometimes fast sometimes um short I think you can ask even a better question than that the the better question would be and this is kind of what's referred to in The Sermon on the Mount is how could I optimize my long-term view well maximizing my focus on the moment because then you get both that's a really that's a really good deal right because now you're conducting yourself in a manner that works in an itrated way that's socially productive right and and maybe intergenerationally socially productive
在我们的文化里这是一种存在的可能性，而以前并不是这样。所以我觉得，有一件事可能会有用——我这里只是提出一个假设——就是年轻人和年长的人都可以审视一下自己的生活，问一问：我的奖赏是在哪些不同的时间尺度上获得的？对，当然，比如为马拉松训练就是一个更长的时间尺度，那也是成熟的一个标志。对，上学拿学位之类的。在商业里，时间尺度有时很快，有时很短。我觉得你还可以问一个更好的问题。那个更好的问题是——这也正是《登山宝训》里所说的——我如何能在最大化我对当下的专注的同时，优化我的长期视野？因为这样你两者兼得。这真是……这真是一笔非常划算的买卖，对吧。因为现在你的行事方式是在一种可迭代的意义上奏效的，是有社会生产力的，对吧，甚至可能是跨代际地有社会生产力的。
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that would be the best thing to establish that's kind of what you're doing as a good father but you're doing that in a manner that enables you to also derive maximal impact from each step you take forward in the present so Carl friston told me we were talking about entropy and and emotion I'd figured out a few years ago with a couple of my students that anxiety signifies the emergence of entropy like technically which I was really thrilled about because it it gives emotion a physical grounding like a real physical grounding and friston surprised me because he said he has a theory of positive emotion that's analogous he also knew the negative emotion he he'd also been working in that domain he said that you get a dopamine kick when you reduce the entropy in relationship to a goal and I thought oh my God that's so cool because it means that uncertainty is entropy when it emerges you get anxious but when you see yourself stepping toward w a goal you get a dopamine kick and the reason that's an
那会是最值得建立的东西。你作为一个好父亲，做的差不多就是这件事，但你是以一种能让你同时从当下每一步中获得最大影响力的方式在做。所以卡尔·弗里斯顿（Carl Friston）跟我说过——当时我们在聊熵和情绪。几年前我和几个学生搞明白了一件事：焦虑标志着熵的出现，是技术意义上的。这让我特别兴奋，因为它给了情绪一个物理基础，一个真正的物理基础。而弗里斯顿让我很意外，因为他说他有一个类似的关于正面情绪的理论，他也知道负面情绪那一块，他也一直在那个领域做研究。他说，当你相对于一个目标减少了熵的时候，你会得到一次多巴胺的冲击。我当时想，天哪，这太酷了，因为这意味着：不确定性就是熵，当它出现时，你会焦虑；但当你看到自己正朝着一个目标迈进时，你会得到一次多巴胺冲击。而这之所以和熵有关，是
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entropy related to entropy is because with each step successful step you take towards a goal you reduce the uncertainty of the pursuit which is manifested in that phenomena you described which is when you see the Finish Line you start running faster right so they're both related to entropy well to have goals at multiple time scales you need to be able to re in I I love this entropy argument it makes total sense that you want to be able to uh withstand the the the the periods of time when you don't know whether or not things are becoming more or less uncertain this is part of becoming um an adult if you will okay okay so yeah that was exactly the thread so there's there's two cories of that one is that the more valuable the goal towards which you're progressing the higher the dopamine kick per unit of advancement so what that means is you want an ultimate goal operating in the domain of each proximal subg goal and that's what happens with this upward orientation it's like what you're trying
因为你朝目标每成功迈出一步，就减少了这场追求中的不确定性，这体现在你描述的那个现象里——当你看到终点线时，你会开始跑得更快，对吧。所以两者都和熵有关。嗯，要在多个时间尺度上拥有目标，你必须能够……我非常喜欢这个熵的论证，它完全说得通：你必须能够扛住那些你并不知道事情正在变得更确定还是更不确定的时期。这也是长大成人的一部分，如果可以这么说的话。好，好，对，这正是那条线索。关于这一点有两个推论。第一个是：你正在朝之推进的目标越有价值，每前进一个单位所获得的多巴胺冲击就越强。这意味着，你希望有一个终极目标在每一个近端子目标的领域里发挥作用，而这正是这种「向上定向」所带来的效果。也就是说，你想做的事情是：让事情尽可能地
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to do is to make things as good as they could be whatever that means over the longest possible span of time for the largest number of people you included now you're not going to know exactly how to do that but that can be your goal okay now that's going to inform your perceptions and your perceptions of pathway but it's also going to modify your reward system because now every proximal step forward is indicator of entropy reduction in regard to that metag goal well there isn't any by definition there isn't anything you can do that's more exciting than that see that kind of explains why your friend was able to pop out of his addictive frame because now he's doing something that's so worthwhile that the temptation of alcohol let's say pales in comparison right right right and right it's a rewriting of the reward contingencies yeah yeah right exactly and and now you can imagine that you could imagine a situation where a culture explores across time to find out how to characterize that goal such that
变好——无论那具体意味着什么——在尽可能长的时间跨度上，为尽可能多的人，也包括你自己。当然你不会确切知道该怎么做到，但那可以成为你的目标。好，那么这会塑造你的知觉，塑造你对道路的知觉；而且它还会改变你的奖赏系统，因为现在每向前迈出一个近端的步伐，都是相对于那个元目标的熵减指标。而根据定义，没有任何事情能比这更令人兴奋了，明白吗。这多少解释了为什么你朋友能跳出他那种成瘾的框架，因为他现在在做一件极其值得去做的事，相比之下，比方说酒精的诱惑就显得微不足道了 对 对 对 而且这是一种对奖赏机制的重写 是啊 是啊 没错 正是如此 而现在你可以想象，你可以想象这样一种情形：一种文化在漫长的时间里不断探索，去弄清楚该如何描述那个目标，使得人们一旦追求这个目标，就会在
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if that goal is pursued people integrate psychologically in a manner that integrates them socially across large spans of time I think that's what happens when the monotheistic Revelation emerges that's ex that's what's happening from a from a biological perspective is that we're starting to characterize the longest term goal yeah something like that this is why I believe that pornography is potentially so poisonous because the level of uncertainty is basically zero yeah people can access what they want to see they can keep foraging until they find it yeah and that's not the way that relationships work the way relationships work is I ask somebody out they might say yes they might say no you got on a date they might not want a second date well things could progress you might think that you're on the path to one thing it turns out it doesn't work or it's it's you're not compatible you know I me that's also extremely salutary because if you're being rejected like say you're a foraging male and you're
心理上整合起来，而且这种整合方式能让他们在很长的时间跨度上实现社会性的整合 我认为这就是一神教的启示出现时所发生的事 从生物学的角度看，那时候正在发生的，就是我们开始去刻画那个最长远的目标 是啊 差不多是这样 这就是为什么我认为色情内容可能有剧毒，因为其中不确定性的水平基本上等于零 是啊 人们随时可以拿到自己想看的东西 他们可以一直搜寻下去，直到找到为止 是啊 而人际关系不是这样运作的 关系的运作方式是：我约某人出去，对方可能答应，也可能拒绝 你约到了第一次，对方可能不想有第二次或者事情可能会继续推进 你以为自己走在通往某个结果的路上，结果发现行不通，或者发现你们其实不合适 你知道 我是说 这其实也极其有益，因为如果你被拒绝——比如比方说你是个在寻觅伴侣的男性，一直不停被拒绝，然后你放弃这一切转向色情内容，那你放弃掉的
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being rejected all the time and you forgo that for pornography what you're foregoing is the corrective that all those women are offering you like they're rejecting you because there is something wrong like seriously there's something wrong and now you escape from that you think well that's a relief because no more rejection it's like yeah no more rejection no more learning no more Improvement and no possibility of of an actual life right no action at a distance yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah no distal no distal accomplishment right yeah the only implication of the pornography masturbation scenario is that is more pornography masturbation that's the only implication of it that's that's all that possibly could AR worse than that because it's more pornography in a degenerating game because as you said you have to chase that novelty Edge otherwise dopamine is driven down further well and that means what it's going to get more and more extreme well that that's not a good scenario that's not a good like what do
是所有那些女性正在给你的纠正反馈 她们拒绝你，是因为你身上确实有问题 说真的，确实有问题 而现在你逃离了这一切，你觉得这真是种解脱，因为再也不会被拒绝了 是啊，就是再也不会被拒绝，也再也不会学习，再也不会进步，再也不可能拥有真实的人生 对，没有远距离的作用 对 对 对 对 是啊 没有远端的成就 对 是啊 色情加自慰这套模式唯一的结果就是更多的色情加自慰 这就是它唯一的结果 差不多就是这样 甚至可能比这更糟因为那是在一个不断退化的游戏里投入更多色情 因为就像你说的，你得去追逐那种新奇感的边缘否则多巴胺会被进一步压低 而这意味着什么？意味着它会变得越来越极端 这可不是个好局面 这一点都不好 你说越来越极端是什么意思？没错 这最后会走到哪儿？你知道
1:53:04
you mean more and more extreme exactly like where does that end well you know a casual glance at online pornography can give you some real insight into where that ends like there's that's a bottomless pit and and in the most pernicious possible manner because sexual it can definitely twist itself into pathological forms that undermine psychological integrity and demolish Society no we see this with people who are highly successful who seem to have lots of areas of their life regulated and then you know they collapse their lives I we sometimes see it with with drugs of abuse as well although unless those drugs of abuse are dopaminergic and people have them in a in check so to speak which is exceedingly rare yes it's usually just a matter of time and they they don't reach the mountain top yes while time is the problem as we've been pointing out let me tell you another story this is from Revelation so Revelation is a vision of the end of time okay now time ends all the time like our adventures end our lives end
只要随便看一眼网上的色情内容，你就能真切地看清这最后会走到哪儿 那是个无底洞 而且是以最恶毒的方式 因为性确实可能扭曲成病态的形式，瓦解心理的完整性、摧毁社会 是啊 我们在那些非常成功的人身上看到过这一点，他们生活的很多方面看起来都很有条理，然后 你知道 他们把自己的人生给毁了 我们有时在滥用药物的人身上也能看到同样的情况 不过除非那些药物是多巴胺能的，而且人们能把它们控制住，可以这么说而这极其罕见 是的 通常只是时间问题，他们登不上山顶 是的而时间正是问题所在，就像我们一直在指出的那样 我再给你讲一个故事，来自《启示录》 《启示录》是关于时间终结的异象 好 而时间其实一直在终结：我们的冒险会结束，我们的生命会结束，我们的关系会结束 所以“终结”是有
1:54:11
our relationships end so the end has a pattern okay Revelation is a vision of the Eternal pattern of the end so here's an element of the Vision it's so remarkable I figured this out with my friend Jonathan pasio so there's a vision in a subvision in in the sequential dream of revelation of the Scarlet Beast and the of Babylon and it's very relevant to our discussion on pornography you'll understand it right away so it's a vision of how Society disintegrates okay now imagine when Society disintegrates men disintegrate according to their pattern and women disintegrate according to their pattern that makes perfect sense right because if Society disintegrates it's going to be men and women who disintegrate there's no reason to assume that their pattern of disintegration would be identical okay Scarlet Beast is is that's the Scarlet beast of the state that's Babylon let's say that's the degenerate tyrannical state has multiple heads why because whatever United it has vanished that's like the death of God
模式的 好 《启示录》就是关于这种永恒的终结模式的异象 这里说说异象中的一个元素，它太了不起了 这是我和我朋友乔纳森·帕乔（Jonathan Pageau）一起弄明白的 在《启示录》那连续的梦境异象里，有一个子异象讲的是朱红色的兽和巴比伦大淫妇，这跟我们关于色情的讨论极其相关，你马上就会明白 这是一个关于社会如何瓦解的异象 好 现在想象一下，当社会瓦解时，男人按照男人的模式瓦解，女人按照女人的模式瓦解 这完全说得通，对吧 因为如果社会瓦解，那瓦解的就是男人和女人没有理由假定他们瓦解的模式会一模一样 好 朱红色的兽那是代表国家的朱红色的兽，那就是巴比伦，可以说，那是堕落的暴政国家 它有很多个头 为什么？因为曾经把它统一起来的那个东西消失了 那就像是上帝之死，它消失了 于是现在它的头
1:55:19
it's vanished and so now it's got heads in every direction so it's confused and it's red scared because that's that confusion that disintegration is the precursor to the river of blood right the Red Sea this the swamp of chaos so when the patriarchal state disintegrates it loses its unity and then it's multiple heads right and that's that's an that's the emblem of descent into diverse chaos and gazes everywhere with these multiple heads precisely precisely it's not integrated okay now that's the disintegration of the patriarchy you might say a top that is the of Babylon that's a beautiful woman who's subordinated her psyche to the demands of sexuality she's the mother of all prostitutes right so she's extremely attractive and she's clad in gold and she holds a cup it's very graphic imagery that has nothing but the consequences of her fornication in it is this I mean I guess I will just say it recently there's been a number of posts on EX of this woman who had sex with 100 men in a day um and now and now she's
朝向四面八方 所以它是混乱的 而它是红色的、令人惊惧的，因为那种混乱、那种瓦解正是血河的前兆 对吧 红海 那混沌的沼泽 所以当父权制国家瓦解时，它失去了统一性，然后就变成了多个头 对 而那正是堕入多头混沌的标志用这许多个头朝各个方向张望 正是如此 正是如此 它不再是整合的 好 那是父权制的瓦解，可以这么说而骑在它上面的是巴比伦大淫妇 那是一个美丽的女人，她把自己的心灵屈从于性的要求 她是一切娼妓之母 对 所以她极具吸引力，身披黄金，手里端着一只杯 那意象非常露骨杯里装的全是她淫乱行为的后果 是这样吧？我是说 我想我就直说了最近 X 上有不少帖子，讲一个女人一天内和 100 个男人发生性关系 嗯 而现在 现在她
1:56:32
saying she's going to have sex with a thousand men in a day yeah well she seems to be rethinking her plan given the emotional consequences she had to her last success yeah I I must say her mother is her finance officer speechless um that's for sure I'm speechless my my um response to the uh her kind of um Post 100 men thing um was it was hard for me to know to what extent that was part of the the uh per whatever performance whatever it was you know so um it was hard for me to discern what was really going on there I'm not a psychologist um but anyone who saw that would say um this is a pretty dark situation it's way darker than anybody who wanted to hold on to their sanity would possibly imagine what's also dark and I'm not saying this from a place of moral judgment I'm just saying this from a place of just kind of like a wow like this woman obviously um navigating life in this way her choice clearly um but the fact that so many people know about this the fact that so many PE and here we're talking about it but I think in
说她要一天和一千个男人发生性关系 是啊 不过考虑到上一次“成功”给她带来的情绪后果，她好像正在重新考虑这个计划 是啊 我得说 她母亲是她的财务主管 无语 嗯 这是肯定的我也无语 我对她那个“和 100 个男人”的事情的反应是 我很难判断那在多大程度上是一种表演，或者别的什么 你知道 所以 我很难分辨那里到底在发生什么 我不是心理学家 但任何看到那件事的人都会说 这是相当黑暗的局面 它比任何想保住自己理智的人所能想象的都要黑暗得多 还有一点也很黑暗而且我说这话不是出于道德评判，我只是出于那种“哇”的感觉这个女人显然是在用这种方式过她的人生 显然这是她自己的选择 但是有这么多人知道这件事这一事实——有这么多人，而且我们现在也在谈论它——不过我想我们是为了某种更大的善 我确实
1:57:44
service to a greater good I certainly believe like like that this is now out out there right it's out there um just like seeing somebody just like seeing somebody murder somebody in Cold Blood we we talk about that recently a video of of an assassination that and those had been available before but um those two things kind of leveled up or leveled down you know um one's idea of of what humans are capable of by allowing so many acceptable what's acceptable or desirable that's right the threshold shifted that's for sure maybe that's the what I'm looking for the threshold shifted yeah okay so that's a great example that that that young woman who's betrayed herself in the deepest possible Manner and all of the people that are following her and all the young women who are influenced by her so you have this figure on the back of the degenerate State that's the degenerate feminine female sexuality commoditize commoditized when the masculine State degenerates that's a sign of the end of things and that makes perfect sense
相信 这件事现在已经公开了 对吧 它就摆在那儿了 就像看到有人冷血地杀害另一个人 我们最近谈到过一段暗杀的视频 而那类东西以前也能看到 但那两件事多少把人对于人类能做出什么事的认知抬高了、或者说拉低了 也把什么是可接受的、什么是可欲的门槛给放宽了 没错 阈值移动了 这是肯定的 也许那就是我想说的词：阈值移动了 是啊 好 那是个很好的例子 那个年轻女人以最深的方式背叛了她自己 还有所有追随她的人，还有所有受她影响的年轻女性 所以你就有了这个骑在堕落国家背上的形象 那就是堕落的女性面，女性性欲被商品化被商品化 当阳刚的国家堕落时 那是万物终结的征兆 而这完全说得通
1:58:55
because well why wouldn't female sexuality commoditize when the masculine is no longer reliable it's exactly what you'd expect you know how the story ends there's another element to it the degenerate state offers the of Babylon as enticement for its degeneration you can have everything you want on the sexual side at the end of that substory the state the Beast kills the prostitute and so what that means is that the long-term consequences of sacrific less sexual satiety is that sexuality itself is destroyed and I think we're seeing that in our society now 30% of Japanese under the age of 30 are virgins right about about the same in South Korea right the birth rates in those countries have plummeted like they're way way below replacement and and increasingly 50% of women in in the west are childless at 30 birth rates are way way down and and going down as well 50% are childless half of them will never have a child because 30 is already pushing it and 95% of them will regret it we're already in a situation in the west where
因为 当阳刚不再可靠时，女性性欲怎么可能不被商品化呢？这正是你会预料到的结果 你知道这故事是怎么结束的 它还有另一个元素：堕落的国家把巴比伦大淫妇当作诱饵，来换取人们接受它的堕落 在性这一边你想要什么都能得到 而在那个子故事的结尾，国家、那头兽杀死了那个妓女 这意味着，无需牺牲就能获得性满足的长期后果是性本身被摧毁 而我认为我们在当今社会正看到这一点 30 岁以下的日本人中有 30%是处子 对吧 韩国的比例也差不多 对 这些国家的出生率已经暴跌远远低于世代更替水平 而且在西方，越来越多——50% 的女性到 30 岁还没有孩子 出生率非常非常低，而且还在继续下降 50% 没有孩子，其中一半将永远不会有孩子，因为 30 岁已经是在勉强了而她们中 95% 会为此后悔 在西方我们已经处在这样一种状况：四分之一的女性将会非自愿地
2:00:13
one in Four Women will be involuntarily childless right and so it's so well that's a good example as I said earlier of how these things are characterized in this symbolic language that outlines the starkest you might say the starkest of biological realities you said that there was a problem you know your sense was that there was a problem with effortless gratification it's like well the problem part of the problem with effortless gratification is it destroys itself and it's so interesting because the promise of the sexual Revolution and the pill was an unlimited Horizon of sexual opportunity okay we know but the actual consequence of that was appears to be that that that's that's the pathway to the demise of sexuality itself this was if you can't be with the one you love Love the One You're With the uh someone I know who was a uh in their 20s in the 1970s explained to me I always thought that song was about you know if you can't be with the the person that you you love you know you find someone else you can
无子女 对吧 所以 就像我刚才说的，这是个很好的例子，说明这些事情是如何被这种象征性语言刻画出来的，而这种语言勾勒出的是最赤裸裸的——可以说是最赤裸裸的生物学现实 你说过有个问题 你的感觉是，不费力气就能得到的满足有问题 那么，问题不费力气的满足，它的部分问题在于它会自我毁灭 而这很有意思，因为性革命和避孕药所许诺的，是一个无限的性机会的地平线 好 我们知道 但它实际的后果似乎恰恰是 那才是通往性本身消亡的道路 这就是那句“如果不能和你爱的人在一起，就爱你身边的人”我认识的一个人，在 1970 年代时正值二十来岁，他跟我解释过 我一直以为那首歌讲的是，如果你不能和你爱的那个人在一起，你就去找另一个你能爱的人 他们跟我解释说不是
2:01:17
love they explain to me that's not what that was about that was about the wildness of the of the 70s right that promise yeah that was about the the sort of the um just uh promiscuity had emerged as a as a theme of the 1970s yeah well I mean in the aftermath of the birth control pill it was not surprising that people thought maybe that was possible but that was wrong it was seriously wrong and we're going to be dealing with the consequences of that for a very long time you said that the that the patriarchy the masculine fails before the well no that happen no say that so it's not causal one no no you can't men and women degenerate at the same rate right I mean we're involved in feedback processes that are so tight that there's no like there's no oppressing women without oppressing men there's no oppressing men without oppressing women it's like we're we're joined at the hip so to speak and so you know these these these these cultures that that that cloak women and silence them you might think well that leads to
那个意思 那讲的是 70 年代的那种狂野 对 那种许诺 是啊 那讲的是那种滥交——滥交在 1970 年代成了一个时代主题 是啊 我是说，在避孕药出现之后人们会觉得那也许是可能的，这并不奇怪 但那是错的 是严重的错误 而我们将要在很长一段时间里承受它的后果 你刚才说父权制、阳刚的一面会先崩溃然后才——不 不是这样 我没这么说 所以这不是因果关系 不不 不能这么说 男人和女人是以同样的速度堕落的 对吧 我是说，我们处在极其紧密的反馈过程里，不可能在不压迫男人的情况下压迫女人也不可能在不压迫女人的情况下压迫男人 可以说我们是绑在一起的 所以你知道 那些把女性遮蔽起来、让她们噤声的文化 你可能会以为那会导致
2:02:21
the domination of men it it it just turns men into pathological tyrants like there's there's no victory over one sex that's a victory of any sense at all that's it's anti-humanity of course of course of course there was a recent um post on X that I that just held my gaze my attention um where it was a back and forth debate a pseudo political social debate and then there were three words that um I'll just to say that uh Mark Andre said you know it was it was about restoring Vigor pride and achievement and I thought wow like he's not a political candidate but that's a beautiful Trifecta Vigor pride and achievement to celebrate those and I and I put that next to you know the the Deep pleasure in generative action at a distance a technological development the Rockets um and there other Genera the theme of the story of Abraham it's like the most the highest form of potential satiation is risk risky romantic adventure it's not satiation right that's the wrong frame right and and so one of the things I've noticed this is
男性的支配地位 但它只会把男人变成病态的暴君 对某一种性别的胜利根本算不上任何意义上的胜利 那是反人类的 当然 当然 当然 最近 X 上有个帖子让我一直盯着看、吸引了我的注意 那是一场来回的辩论，一场伪政治的社会辩论 然后其中有三个词嗯 我就直说吧 是马克·安德森（Marc Andreessen）说的 你知道，讲的是重建活力、自豪与成就我当时就想，哇 他又不是政治候选人，但那是个很漂亮的三件套：活力、自豪、成就 去赞颂这三样 而我把它跟那种在“远距离的生成性行动”中获得的深层快乐放在一起看——技术的发展、那些火箭 嗯 还有其他有生成力的东西 亚伯拉罕故事的主题 就好像，最高形式的潜在满足是冒险，是充满风险的浪漫冒险 它不是满足 对 那个框架是错的 对 所以我注意到的一件事——这
2:03:41
such fun I've talked in front of I don't know how many public audiences in the last eight years independent of my professorial career and th those are large audiences um you know they must average about 3 or 4 thousand people and there's one place I go that always reduces the audience to like dead silence the audiences are usually quiet in the events you know and that's one of the ways I'm sure you know this is you want to listen to the audience you want to stay in that zone where no one's moving right cuz then you know you their attention is focused and you can hear that and you can you can I wouldn't say you can play with it not manipulatively but in the proper sense of play I learned a long while ago that Adventure let's say is the highest form of reward that's a good way of thinking about it but there's a corollary to that that conservatives need to learn because they don't know this conservatives talk about responsibility but they're conscientious and so for them responsibility is dutiful orderly
特别有意思 过去八年里，除了我的教授生涯之外，我不知道在多少公众场合演讲过那些都是很大的观众群 你知道，平均大概三四千人有一个点，我每次讲到都会让全场变得死一般寂静 通常这类活动上观众本来就很安静 你知道而这也是——我相信你也懂这个——你要去倾听观众，你要保持在那个状态里没有人在动 对吧 因为那时你就知道他们的注意力是集中的，你能听出来 你可以——我不会说是“玩弄”它，不是操纵意义上的，而是本来意义上的“玩” 我很久以前就明白了冒险可以说是最高形式的奖赏 这是个很好的思考方式 但它还有一个推论是保守派需要学会的，因为他们不知道这一点 保守派谈论责任，但他们是尽责型人格 所以对他们来说，责任就是恪尽职守、井井有条的生产力 那是尽责性 责任是一种尽责的义务
2:04:52
productivity it's it's conscientiousness responsibility is a conscientious Duty what they fail to understand is that there's no difference between responsibility and Adventure they're the same thing and you can tell young men in particular that say look you want to have an adventure because you definitely want an adventure you're you're like you're built for that it will increase your status it will improve your life like it'll improve the probability that you'll accomplish something you want an adventure your every fiber of your being is screaming for it where do you find it you find it in the voluntary adoption of responsibility and that's that's like everyone needs to know that no young person has been taught that for like five generations this is important can we operationalize this so in your first book you talked about get your room in order yeah one of the first things I do when I wake up in the morning I look around the kitchen I look around my room and I try and get things in order yeah
他们没能理解的是，责任和冒险之间没有区别 它们是同一回事 而你可以告诉年轻男性——尤其是他们你可以说，听着，你想要一场冒险，因为你绝对是想要冒险的 你天生就是为此而生的 它会提升你的地位，会改善你的生活，会提高你成就某件事的概率 你想要一场冒险，你身上的每一根纤维都在为此呐喊 那你在哪儿找到它？你在自愿承担责任中找到它 而这是每个人都需要知道的 可是已经有大约五代人没有哪个年轻人被教过这一点了 这很重要 我们能不能把它落到操作层面？在你的第一本书里你讲过“把你的房间收拾好” 是啊 我早上起床后做的头几件事之一，就是环顾厨房、环顾我的房间，然后试着把东西整理好 是啊 而我现在需要这么做才能
2:05:50
and I I now I need that in order to be able to think clearly but it's just a first order of business well it's also a great R it's a great morning ritual because it's often the case especially if you have a bit of a depressive tilt that it's kind of hard to get oriented properly in the morning you know and if you take like I moved into a new house a while back in in Northern Ontario and the garage wasn't set up properly and the first thing I did in the morning was I went out in the garage for 10 minutes and 10 minutes isn't very long but I would like order one thing you know part of the tool box or whatever and like if you do that every day Things fall into order pretty quickly but it was a real relief to me in some way because I didn't have to think about what I was going to do when I woke up I made my bed and then I went and fixed the garage for like 10 minutes and you get the brain into this into what I call linear operations like the ability to carry out something linearly when there's an near
清晰地思考 但它只是第一件要办的事 这也是个很棒的晨间仪式因为经常会这样——尤其是如果你有点抑郁倾向——早上很难让自己进入正确的状态 你知道 比如说 我前一阵搬进了安大略北部的一栋新房子车库没有整理好 于是我早上做的第一件事就是去车库待 10 分钟10 分钟并不长，但我会整理一样东西，比如工具箱的一部分什么的 而如果你每天都这么做，东西很快就会各归其位 但这在某种意义上对我是种真正的解脱，因为我不用再去想我醒来后要做什么 我整理好床铺，然后去收拾车库大概 10 分钟 这样你就把大脑带入了我所说的“线性运作”状态，也就是那种执行……的能力在手机里、在你的实体空间里有近乎无限的选项时，还能线性地做点什么——我
2:06:44
infinite number of options in your phone in the in your in your physical space I think is so powerful because it's an antidote to chaos a Target absolutely certainly isn't a sinful Target you at Le and you know it's not sin to clean your room or to organize your space or or the garage so so you start with it so within the day one can do that in terms of I um I really uh love the the stickiness the positive stickiness of this idea that adventure and responsibility are the same thing well well let's let's take that apart because it's it's not immediately obvious but look when you go let's say say you go see an adventure movie James Bond movie you know classic archetypal action adventure movie with some romance thrown in there um what is he doing well difficult things he's trying to solve crimes he's trying to catch bad guys yeah he's trying to battle with the forces of chaos that undermine the international order right I mean it's it's high order adventure and he's putting himself at substantive risk to
觉得这非常有力量，因为它是混乱的解药。Target（塔吉特超市）绝对不是什么罪恶的地方，你在打折，而且你知道，打扫房间、整理空间或者车库都不是罪。所以你就从这里开始，在一天之内就能做到。说到这个，我真的非常喜欢这个想法的那种黏性、那种正向的黏性——冒险和责任其实是同一件事。那我们来把它拆开讲讲，因为这一点并不是一眼就能看明白的。你看，当你去，比方说你去看一部冒险电影，一部詹姆斯·邦德电影，你知道的，那种经典的原型式动作冒险片，里面还掺了点浪漫元素。那他在干什么呢？在做困难的事。他在努力破案，他在努力抓坏人，对吧，他在跟那些破坏国际秩序的混乱力量搏斗。我的意思是，这是高层次的冒险，而且他为此把自己置于实实在在的风险之中，这就是其中的牺牲成分。但每个人都被它牢牢吸引住了，
2:07:47
do that that that's the sacrificial element to it but everybody's gripped by it well why because the stakes are high what does it mean for the stakes to be high it means the outcome matters what does that mean it means it's a life and death situation like none of that makes itself present without the hoisting of a burden and here's something else I figured out so remarkable so I went to the Church of the Holy sepulture in Jerusalem which is the first church that was the first Christian Church that was establish lished and hypothetically it was established on the location of the crucifixion right and so at the center of the church is an altar and at the center of the altar is the image of this crucifixion right which is a sacrificial image okay crucifixion sacrificial image altar church then around the church is the community and then that becomes the pattern for European towns right and all the towns that everyone wants to go visit in Europe have that pattern okay so why well responsible sacrific is
为什么？因为赌注很高。赌注高意味着什么？意味着结局很重要。这又意味着什么？意味着这是生死攸关的处境。而这一切，只有在一个人扛起重担时才会显现出来。还有另一件事，我琢磨明白了，特别了不起。我去过耶路撒冷的圣墓教堂，那是第一座教堂，是最早建立的基督教教堂，假设它就建在受难处的位置上，对吧。所以教堂的中心是一个祭坛，而祭坛的中心是这幅受难像，对吧，那是一个献祭的意象。好，受难、献祭意象、祭坛、教堂，然后教堂周围是社区。接着这就成了欧洲城镇的模式，对吧，所有那些人人都想去欧洲参观的城镇都是这个模式。好，那为什么呢？因为负责任的牺牲是社区的核心。这就是
2:08:56
at the core of the community that's what's dramatized in all that in that architecture in that in that sacred architecture in the actual in in the in the structure of the community with its Center well of course sacrifice is the center of the community obviously because Community is a sacrificial gesture like in so far as you're not all about what you want right now you're offering up a sacrifice of what it is that you want right now to the Future and the community clearly and now that's going to integrate you psychologically it's going to integrate the society and make it productive and it's so interesting that we acted that out for that proposition out for well the whole at least in so far as you're talking about Christian oriented civilization for the last 2,000 years without ever really noticing that we were dramatizing the proposition that sacrifices at the center of the community it's like obviously well what are we to make of you know cities like San Francisco which I grew up just south
那一切所戏剧化呈现的东西——在那种建筑里，在那种神圣建筑里，在社区的实际结构里，在它的中心位置。当然了，牺牲就是社区的中心，这很明显，因为社区本身就是一种献祭的姿态。就是说，只要你不是一心只顾此刻自己想要什么，你就是在把此刻想要的东西献祭出去，献给未来，也明确地献给社区。而这会在心理上整合你，会整合整个社会并使之富有生产力。特别有意思的是，我们把这个命题演绎出来了，至少就以基督教为取向的文明而言，演绎了整整两千年，却从来没有真正注意到，我们是在把「牺牲处于社区的中心」这个命题戏剧化地呈现出来。这不是明摆着的嘛。那我们该怎么看待旧金山这样的城市呢？我就在它南边长大，你知道，按任何标准来说它都是
2:09:59
of and it you know by any standard it's a beautiful city I know people are going to like roll their some people roll their eyes I mean you have the bay on one side you have the ocean on the other it has magnificent Bridges I mean it's a it's a testament to what's possible in a city in terms of diverse Landscapes Etc but the downtown the center of the city is just Beyond anybody's sense of of of De indecency to walk down in the in the afternoon hours let alone at night so that at this point you you wonder like is the center really the center I mean you you literally have to avoid the center of the city in order to get away from any of that and and it's very yeah the question is so you're you're asking a symbolic question in some ways like you're asking what is the nature of the relationship between the the state of society in general and the fact that the centers of cities have deteriorated well those aren't unrelated not in the least they're very tightly related because the center does not hold right what's the
一座美丽的城市。我知道有些人会翻白眼，我是说，一边是海湾，另一边是大洋，还有壮观的桥梁。我是说，它是一座城市在地貌多样性等方面所能达到的高度的明证。但市中心，这座城市的中心，已经烂到任何人都无法接受的地步，白天都不敢走过去，更别说晚上了。所以到了这个地步，你就会想，这个中心还算是中心吗？我是说，你简直得绕开这座城市的中心才能躲开从这些里面……对，这个问题其实很有意思，你问的在某种意义上是个象征层面的问题，就像是你在问，社会整体的状态和城市中心区衰败这件事之间，到底是什么样的关系城市中心衰败了——这两件事绝不是不相关的，一点都不，它们联系得非常紧密，因为中心守不住了，对吧，那首
10科学为什么离不开一个故事
2:11:07
famous poem from the 1920s the center is loosened right and mere chaos is around mere chaos is set upon the world I haven't got the quote precisely right that was TS Elliott he knew that when when the center pillar disintegrates then everything falls into chaos that's one of the oldest realizations of of humankind the question might be what has caused the degeneration of this of the center well man you could think about that the whole culture war is meditation on exactly that question you know there's an insistence on the postmodern side so the postmodernists they figured out that we see the world through a story they were right and and that's a devastating blow to the empiricists and the rationalists because they were wrong we do not build our knowledge in consequence of an aggregation of facts that's not how it works and a story is something like the prioritization of the world of facts I heard recently that that religion teaches through story philosophy teaches through um language that is divorced of story and that
1920年代的名诗是怎么说的来着，中心松动了，对吧，纯粹的混乱四处蔓延，混乱被释放到这个世界上，我引得不太准确，那是T.S.艾略特，他明白，当中心的支柱崩解时，一切就会陷入混乱，这是人类最古老的领悟之一。问题也许是，是什么导致了这个中心的退化，嗯天哪，你可以好好想想这个，整场文化战争其实就是对这个问题的冥思，你知道，后现代那一派有一种坚持那一边——后现代主义者他们发现，我们是通过故事来看世界的，他们说对了，而这对经验主义者和理性主义者是毁灭性的打击，因为他们错了，我们的知识并不是靠事实的堆积建立起来的，事情不是那样运作的，而故事就有点像是对事实世界的排序。我最近听到一种说法：宗教通过故事来教，哲学通过语言来教一种剥离了故事的语言，而科学则被设计成几乎要完全脱离语言，我
2:12:17
science is designed to try and remove itself from language almost entirely I mean you'd love to just present graphs and figures but you have to explain what's in those right there's a discussion there's some conclusions but the idea is that as scientists we're supposed to be objective and just interpret the data as they stand to not and to not only be informed by the fact to not INF a story but but story is the the the way that the brain works right I mean beginning middle end um it's also the thing is the story creeps into science in in what would you say unavoidably so here let me give you an example so I read a book once that was written by an X KGB agent who talked about a lab in the in the Soviet Union where there had was a dreadful accident at one point that resulted in the death of about 500 people they were trying to produce an amalgam of um Ebola and small pox yikes and then to aerosolize it oh goodness okay now look from a strictly scientific perspective value free there's no difference between pursuing that branch
是说，你恨不得只呈现图表和数据，但你得解释那里面是什么，对吧，得有讨论，得有结论，但核心的想法是，作为科学家我们应该客观，只按数据本身来解读，不要……只让事实来引导不要加入故事。可是故事就是大脑运作的方式啊，对吧，我是说有开头、中间、结尾，而且问题是，故事会悄悄渗进科学里，怎么说呢，是不可避免地渗进去。我给你举个例子，我以前读过一本书是一个前克格勃特工写的，他讲到苏联的一个实验室，那里曾经发生过一场可怕的事故有一次事故导致大约500人死亡，他们当时在试图制造埃博拉和天花的混合体——天哪——然后再把它做成气溶胶。哦，老天。好，现在你看，从严格的、价值中立的科学角度来说，追求这一支知识
2:13:29
of knowledge and pursuing any other now you say well that's preposterous it's like yeah yes but it's Preposterous because we know that you can have an evil scientist I mean Jesus that's the Trope of how many movies is evil scientist a uses evil scientist as a Trope like the bad guy is almost always an evil scientist right so it's not like we don't know this so that science itself which is the value free pursuit of facts can be an evil Enterprise if you're a good scientist the story is always lurking in the background like why are you conducting your investigation well I want to understand more about the human psyche well why well I want to be of Aid to the human Enterprise I want to make things better that's the story I want to pursue truth in a manner that makes things better that's the story part well you and you might say well that's self-evidence like it's only self-evident when it's working properly when it's not working properly things get bad quick so there were scientists in Unit 731 when the Japanese invaded
和追求任何别的知识没有区别。这时你会说，这太荒谬了，对，是荒谬，但它之所以荒谬是因为我们知道世上会有邪恶的科学家，天哪，这可是多少电影里的经典套路啊，邪恶科学家把邪恶科学家当成套路，坏人几乎总是个邪恶科学家，对吧，所以并不是我们不知道这一点，所以说科学本身——也就是价值中立地追求事实——是可以成为一项邪恶事业的。如果你是个好科学家，故事总是潜伏在背景里，比如，你为什么要做这项研究？嗯，我想更多地理解人类的心灵为什么呢？嗯，我想对人类这项事业有所帮助，我想让事情变得更好——这就是故事。我想以让世界变好的方式去追求真理，这就是故事的部分。你可能会说，这不是不言自明的吗？可它只有在一切运转正常时才是不言自明的，一旦运转不正常，事情会迅速变糟。所以，当年有些科学家在731部队里，就是日本侵华的时候，你根本没法读他们干了什么而不让自己
2:14:35
China and you cannot read about what they did without without traumatizing yourself permanently for the rest of your life right what happened with Unit 731 it's the worst human atrocity I've ever seen by a lot and that was the scientific Enterprise gone astray let's say it has to be encapsulated within a value structure and the question is well what's the appropriate value structure we're starting to figure that out because you know I talked to Richard Dawkins about this a little bit one of the things that disheartens Dawkins is that as the humanistic Enterprise has progressed and as the atheistic impulse has made itself more manifest The Assault on science and logic at the universities has intensified cuz his notion was if we could just free oursel from the superstitions of the past everyone would become like a hybrid between let's say Newton and bacon and dekart it's like no it turns out that when you destabilize the underlying story everybody becomes a narcissistic immature psychopath and
受到终生无法磨灭的创伤，对吧。731部队发生的事，是我见过的最惨烈的人类暴行没有之一，差距很大，那就是科学事业彻底走上了歧途。所以说，它必须被包裹在一个价值结构里，而问题是，什么才是合适的价值结构？我们才刚开始把这个想明白因为，你知道，我和理查德·道金斯稍微聊过这个，让道金斯感到沮丧的一件事是随着人本主义事业的推进，随着无神论冲动越来越显性化，大学里对科学和逻辑的攻击反而加剧了。因为他原本的设想是，只要我们能从过去的迷信中解放出来，每个人都会变成牛顿、培根和笛卡尔的混合体。结果并不是，事实证明，当你动摇了底层的那个故事，每个人都会变成自恋、不成熟的精神病态者，他们当不了好科学家，而且
2:15:42
they don't make good scientists and like the evidence for that is kind of Stark because I'm sure you've observed like I've observed that over the last 20 years the scientific Enterprise has become a lot less reliable than it was well for a number of reasons I mean one of the primary ones in my opinion um and I'm familiar with the scientific Community is that that that a lot of science is built on lineages and you know who your advisers were and so forth it relates to funding Etc and it used to be that the primary value with within and across lineages was to seek out new territory I could tell a lot of stories that would take up hours about great advisers telling their students to move into new territories which sounded like get out of my field I'm going to demolish you but instead what they were encouraging them to do was to go on let's use your language New Adventures of responsibility New Frontier but instead what's happened is that 95% of the scientists in a given subfield all work on similar problems pin medals on
这方面的证据相当刺眼，因为我相信你也观察到了，就像我观察到的那样，过去20年里科学事业变得比以前不可靠多了。嗯，这有很多原因，我认为其中最主要的一个——我对科学界还算熟悉——是很多科学是建立在师承脉络上的，你知道，你的导师是谁等等，这关系到经费之类的。而过去，在同一脉络内部以及跨脉络之间，最重要的价值是去开拓新领域。我能讲上好几个小时的故事，都是关于伟大的导师叫自己的学生去开辟新领域的，听上去像是“滚出我的领域，不然我灭了你”，但他们实际上是在鼓励学生去，借用你的说法，去展开新的责任的冒险，去闯新的疆域。但现在的情况是，一个子领域里95%的科学家都在做类似的问题，互相给对方颁奖章，互相背书，互相给钱，结果就是有
2:16:38
each other validate each other fund each other and as a consequence there are a lot of untouched problems that will hopefully it somay someday be investigated the other consequence is that this debacle within the field of Alzheimer's in dementia where one laboratory fudges data and you kind of wonder if I mean that's not my subfield but I you step back from there you go how the hell this progress for 15 years where everyone was you know like the emperor has no clothes like everyone agreeing that this is the stuff to work on when when in fact the data were falsified and people knew people knew so what that means is that it's like it's like bad family values passed on through generations and these I do think these are well-meaning people along the line but yeah yes and no little a little bit uh intense on the career formulation side of things well so right the careerist aspect as opposed to the scientist aspect well well that exist too well let let's think about let's think about that critically it's like
大量无人触碰的问题，希望有一天能被研究。另一个后果就是阿尔茨海默症和痴呆领域的那场大丑闻，一个实验室篡改数据，你不禁会想——我是说那不是我的子领域但你退一步看，你会想，这怎么可能持续了15年，所有人都像是皇帝的新衣那样，所有人都同意这就是该做的方向，而实际上那些数据是伪造的，而且有人是知道的，有人知道。这意味着什么呢？这就像是糟糕的家风一代代传下去。我确实认为这一路上的人大多是善意的，但……嗯，是也不是，多少有点在职业经营那方面用力过猛。对，所以是职业主义那一面，而不是科学家那一面，嗯，这个也确实存在。我们来批判地想一想这件事，科学是一项非常奇怪的事业，因为
2:17:33
science is a very weird Endeavor because in order to actually be a scientist you have to put discovering that you're wrong before demonstrating that you're right and that is hard on your career in the short term like if you play that game and you're good at it you can discover something real but that's going to take a while and it's not certain right it's not at all surprising that people would subvert an Enterprise that difficult to the narrow demands of career enhancement it's exactly what you'd expect unless there was a stunningly powerful counterveiling force and that force was powerful enough let's say from 1550 to 1980 so that science worked but that's a short period of time and it's only happened once and we don't know what conditions had to be in place for people to actually like seriously prioritize the truth seriously because that's what a serious scientist does and so it's not surprising that it would degenerate into something like Dynasty and nepotism that's exactly what you'd expect that's
要真正成为一个科学家，你必须把“发现自己错了”放在“证明自己对了”前面，而这在短期内对你的职业生涯是不利的。如果你玩这个游戏而且玩得好，你可能发现一些真实的东西，但那要花很久，而且并不确定，对吧。所以一点都不奇怪人们会把这么艰难的一项事业，扭曲成服务于职业晋升的狭隘需求，这恰恰是你该预料到的，除非存在某种极其强大的反向力量。而那股力量曾经强大到，比如说从1550年到1980年，让科学真的运转起来了。但那是很短的一段时间，而且只发生过一次，我们并不知道需要具备什么样的条件，人们才会真的、认真地把真理放在第一位，是认真的那种，因为那才是一个严肃的科学家该做的。所以它退化成类似王朝和裙带关系的东西，一点都不奇怪这正是你该预料到的，这才是历史上的常态。那么你可能会想，究竟需要什么样的前提条件
2:18:41
the historical Norm so then you might think well what are the preconditions that have to be in place as narrative foundation for there to be at least some some people that are prioritizing the truth I think one needs to reward true adventure and Novelty taking on novel problems and you know these days it's so hard for a scientist to birth an entire New Field and yet there are huge huge sets of untapped problems the the challenge for them is it's difficult to get funding to take on things that are truly new you know there's a lot of discussion these days about challenges with the NIH Etc I think that the biggest challenge regardless of the size of the budget which is also you know an issue that needs to be dealt with and where where it's spent is that we tend to reward science that's already completed that fits with the current narrative and it's very incremental they reward incremental science whereas great science comes through taking great risk and people like you said holding the truth Above All Else and being willing
作为叙事的根基，才能让至少一部分人真的把真理放在第一位？我认为得奖励真正的冒险和创新，奖励去碰全新的问题。而如今一个科学家要开创一整个新领域太难了，可是有大量大量尚未开发的问题。对他们来说难点在于，要为真正全新的东西拿到经费很难。你知道，现在有很多关于NIH等等所面临挑战的讨论。我认为最大的挑战，不论预算规模有多大——当然预算规模本身也是个需要处理的问题，还有钱花在哪里——最大的问题是我们倾向于奖励那些已经做完的、符合当下主流叙事的科学，而且是非常渐进式的，他们奖励渐进式的科学，然而伟大的科学来自于承担巨大的风险，来自于像你说的，把真理置于一切之上，并且愿意
2:19:36
to stake their careers on it and we need to actually reward failure if it involved effort to solve things correctly in other words give give young scientists funding and encourage them to go after novel problems and understand that most of them will fail and that doesn't necessarily mean that they have to be exited out of the University give them a new novel problem to tackle problem is there's so much pressure and you know because you're University Professor I know you know in order to reach tenure you need to you need to reduce the entropy as much as possible in any event I without going down that path too too far I now um understand why you're saying that science in has to invoke story that Mak has to be embedded that makes sense that makes sense otherwise well science is the handmaiden of some story there's no way around that because motivation is the handmaiden of some story and so the motivational framework has to be put in place accurately and the motivational framework for scientific inquiry is very
为此押上自己的职业生涯。而且我们其实需要奖励失败——只要那失败是为了正确地解决问题而付出的努力。换句话说，给年轻科学家经费，鼓励他们去攻全新的问题，并且理解他们中大多数都会失败而失败并不意味着他们就得被赶出大学，给他们一个新的问题再去攻问题在于压力太大了，而且你知道，因为你是大学教授，我知道你懂，为了拿到终身教职，你必须尽可能地把不确定性降到最低。总之，我不往那个方向扯太远了，我现在明白你为什么说科学必须调用故事、必须被嵌入其中了这说得通，这说得通，否则的话……嗯，科学就是某个故事的侍女，这是绕不开的因为动机就是某个故事的侍女，所以那个动机框架必须被准确地建立起来，而科学探究的动机框架是非常严苛的：真理高于一切。对吧，所以如果你把自己整个该死的职业生涯押在
2:20:33
stringent truth above all right so if you state your whole goddamn career on a particular hypothesis and you run a critical study and it turns out that the reason you're famous is invalid you have to publish that why the hell would you do that right and the answer has to be because you hold the truth in relationship to human flourishing higher than the Integrity of your own even your own self valuation well man that's a very diff that's a very difficult thing to establish now you can do that with young scientists to some degree because you can help them understand that as a medium to long-term game there's nothing better than pursuit of the truth and so that's worth a risk it's worth a risk because you can be spectacularly successful if you pursue the truth it's unlikely like it's unlikely to be a successful entrepreneur but if you get it right man you like you've hit the mother load right and you don't want to falsify your data because you want to spend your whole life pursuing something that doesn't exist
某个特定假设上，然后你做了一个关键性的实验，结果发现你之所以出名的那个东西是站不住脚的，你就必须把它发表出来。你他妈为什么要这么做？对吧。答案只能是，因为你把与人类繁荣相连的真理，看得高于你自己的完整性，甚至高于你对自己的评价。天哪，这是件非常……非常难以确立的事。现在，你在某种程度上可以对年轻科学家做到这一点，因为你可以帮他们理解，作为一场中长期的游戏没有什么比追求真理更好的了，所以那值得冒险。值得冒险，因为如果你追求真理，你可能取得惊人的成功。这很难，就像当一个成功的创业者很难一样但如果你做对了，天哪，那你就是挖到大矿了，对吧。而且你不会想伪造数据，因为那意味着你要用一辈子去追求一个根本不存在的东西，因为你会说服自己相信你伪造的东西是真的
2:21:42
because you will talk yourself into belief that your falsifications are true and then you'll warp the whole field as you said you Illustrated that in relationship to Alzheimer's disease like you can instill love of the truth in in your students but you have to believe that's a story too you have to believe that the truth will set you free right and that's a religious presumption in the final analysis serve truth it's the best long-term strategy it's the best adventure that's a good thing to know too it's the best adventure so I made a triumvirate of Truth responsibility and Adventure saying they're the same thing and I figured it out with regard to truth too truth is an adventure because if you what would you say vow to follow the path of the truth you have to let go of the predictability of the outcome right now if I wanted to manipulate you in some way I would craft my strategy for this podcast a priority and then I would tilt the podcast toward that end right and I could be more or less
然后你就会扭曲整个领域，就像你说的，你刚才用阿尔茨海默症举了例子你可以在学生心里种下对真理的热爱，但你得相信——这也是一个故事——你得相信真理会让你自由，对吧，而这归根到底是一个宗教性的预设：服事真理，这是最好的长期策略，也是最好的冒险——这也是件值得知道的事，那是最好的冒险，所以我把真理、责任和冒险合成了一个三位一体，说它们其实是同一回事。关于真理我也想明白了：真理是一种冒险，因为如果你——怎么说呢——发誓要走真理的道路，你就必须放弃结果的可预测性，对吧比如现在，如果我想以某种方式操控你，我会事先为这期播客设计好策略，然后把整期节目往那个方向引，对吧。我可以做得或高明或拙劣，或者我干脆说：我们就顺着这条线索走
2:22:54
sophisticated at that or I could just say we're going to follow the thread wherever it goes and I'm going to accept the outcome and I'm going to presume that the outcome is the best outcome that could possibly have been even if I don't see why okay why is that an adventure because if I let go of my predetermined goal I don't know what's going to happen and that's exciting it's right cuz don't know well that's the that's the essence of Adventure it's like you're bounding over the Uncharted sea let's say and you don't know what's going to happen next well why would you exchange that for like a kind of banel predictability well to build your career to I mean I understand why but you're foregoing what's truly valuable for something that's second rate for something that's secure that's what Abraham did it's like you know it's better to have the adventure why the hell wouldn't you want that so he left what was indulgent he had everything for what was truly generative in service to something larger and dangerous and
走到哪儿算哪儿，我接受它的结果，并且我假定这个结果就是最好的结果是所有可能里最好的，哪怕我看不出为什么。好，那为什么这是冒险？因为如果我放下预设的目标，我就不知道会发生什么，而这很令人兴奋——对，因为不知道。这正是冒险的本质，就好像你正跃行在一片未知的海面上，你不知道接下来会发生什么。那你为什么要拿它去换一种平庸的可预测性呢？嗯，为了经营你的事业之类的——我理解为什么，但你是在放弃真正有价值的东西，去换二流的东西，去换安稳。亚伯拉罕做的正相反，你知道还是去冒险更好，你他妈怎么会不想要这个呢？所以他离开了安逸——他本来什么都有——去追求真正有创生力的东西，去服务于某种更宏大、也更危险的东西。也危险，比如他最后成了个战士
2:23:59
dangerous like he ends up as a warrior at one point he has to raise an army to rescue his nephew from the hands of tyrants it's like you know all the adventures of Life get thrown at him but it turns out that that's what he wants he wants all the adventures of life to be thrown at him and that is what everyone wants and I think that is you know the idea that when you go watch the Lord of the Rings for example or The Hobbit you're seeing the characterization of human personality dramatized like obviously right that's like a truism but you have to think about what that means it's like The Hobbit is Abraham it's exactly the same story and that story is the story of the that's the genuine identity of the individual and the promise is is that if you aim up and you live in the spirit of the truth you'll have the Redemptive adventure of your life and that'll be of such significance that it'll justify the suffering that's intrinsic to life and I think that's right I mean when when you look at your own life I
有一次他得召集一支军队，把侄子从暴君手里救出来。你看，生活里所有的冒险都砸到了他头上，但结果发现，这正是他想要的。他就是想让生活中所有的冒险都砸到自己头上，而这也正是每个人想要的。我觉得这就是——你知道，比如你去看《指环王》，或者《霍比特人》，你看到的是人类人格的戏剧化刻画。这显然是老生常谈，但你得去想想这意味着什么。《霍比特人》就是亚伯拉罕，完全是同一个故事，而那个故事讲的是个体真正的身份。它给出的承诺是：如果你向上瞄准，并且活在真理的精神里，你就会拥有属于你人生的救赎式冒险，而它的意义之重大，足以正当化生命中内在的苦难。我觉得这是对的。我是说，看看你自己的人生——你正在一场冒险里，你
2:25:02
mean you're you're on an adventure you have this podcast it's ridiculously successful right in a way that I'm sure you couldn't have imagined how long five years ago yeah we we are about to hit the end of four years in a couple weeks we've been we launched in January 2021 no no premonition could have seen this or for I had no concept that it would become what it's become right okay and so what what's the existential consequence of that like you know I mean everyone's life is rif with the possibility of suffering and now you have something exciting and generative to do why is that working I mean existentially why does that work you know people will ask me what's next where are you headed and I would just say you know like on well on Friday I'm talking to Jordan Peterson and I'm focused on that all week long and next week I'm recording a solo podcast C about whatever it happens to be I just believe that's setting my sights on the proximal and I just believe in um I know my my deep deep deep love of finding
有这档播客，它成功得离谱，成功到我相信你当初根本想象不到——多久了，五年前？是啊，再过几周我们就满四年了，我们是2021年1月上线的没有任何预感能预见到这一切，我完全没想过它会变成今天这样。好，那么这在存在层面上意味着什么？你知道，每个人的生活都充满了受苦的可能，而现在你有了一件令人兴奋、有创生力的事可做。为什么这管用？我是说在存在意义上为什么管用？你知道，人们会问我接下来是什么你要往哪儿去。我就会说，比如这周五我要和乔丹·彼得森聊，而我整整一周都专注在这件事上；下周我要录一期单人播客，讲碰巧要讲的话题。我就是相信这个——把目光放在最近的那一步上。而且我知道自己深深深深地热爱去发现
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organizing and disseminating information that I hope will be useful to people okay so that's it that's that's what that's the driving force behind all of it really okay so great so so I would say I don't think that that Proclamation I don't think is any different any different from the notion of identity with the Redeeming Word that's the same idea cuz you said generated generating ideas right information and disseminating it right so that's like it's valid inquiry and and dissemination of the consequences okay your claim is that that's highly intrinsically motivating oh yeah right okay so then I Delight I Delight in it I it's hard sometimes I mean it's I was trying to read a really difficult paper yesterday it's hard but it it feels so good okay so then we might say well what's what what's the basis for that intrinsic pleasure we think about that biologically well you could imagine it as a manifestation of the Instinct that integrates right it integrates you across time it integrates you with other
整理和传播那些我希望能对人有用的信息。好，就是这样，这就是这就是这一切背后真正的驱动力。好，太好了。那我会说，我不觉得这个宣示跟“与救赎之道（Redeeming Word）认同”的那个观念有什么不同，这是同一个想法。因为你说的是生成——生成想法、信息，然后把它传播出去，对吧。所以这就是正当的探究，以及把结果传播出去。好，你的说法是，这件事具有极强的内在驱动力。哦，是的。好，那么我我乐在其中，我真的乐在其中。有时候很难，我是说，我昨天在读一篇特别难的论文很难，但感觉太好了。好，那我们可以问：这种内在愉悦的基础是什么？从生物学角度想，你可以把它设想成某种“整合本能”的显现——它把你整合起来跨时间地整合你，也跨时间地把你和他人整合起来，对吧。而这是有标记的。你为什么不会发现
2:27:08
people across time right and there's a marker for that why wouldn't you find your how could it be otherwise then you would find your deepest satisfaction in pursuing the course of action that integrates you psychologically and integrates other people socially like that would assume that there's a concordance between your deepest self-interest and the interest of your society and it better be that way because otherwise you couldn't Thrive as an individual in society so it better be that way and we've been doing this for a very long time as human beings so why we wouldn't have an instinct to mark that pathway and of course we'd find our deepest satisfaction in that I mean once you once you see these issues through that light they become I think painfully obvious so because that also because the contrary hypothesis is absurd it's like you're going to find deep satisfaction what rejecting knowledge and if you do happen to stumble across a nugget you're going to hoard it for yourself right well right right exactly it's laughable
怎么可能不是这样呢？你当然会在那条既能在心理上整合你又能在社会上整合他人的行动路线里，找到最深的满足感。这就预设了你最深的自身利益和你所处社会的利益之间是一致的。而且最好就是这样，否则你就无法作为个体在社会中兴旺。所以最好就是这样。而我们人类已经这样生活了非常非常久所以我们怎么会没有一种本能去标记那条路径呢？我们当然会在那里找到最深的满足。我是说，一旦你一旦你从这个角度去看这些问题，我觉得它们就变得显而易见到近乎刺眼。因为还有一点，就是相反的假设太荒谬了——难道说，你会在拒斥知识里找到深层满足？而且如果你碰巧捡到一块金子，你还要自己藏起来？对吧——对对，正是如此，这很可笑
11召唤与良知：从修好手边的事开始
2:28:12
it's clearly laughable No One Believes that earlier we were talking about operationalizing um this uh the effort the calling to move from potential chaos to order starts with organizing one's physical space if we were to you know extend the um the the rings of the bullseye out a little bit further for people listening who are trying to figure out like what where where do they receive that calling how how do they find their calling that like where so responsibility and Adventure being perhaps the um the the compass through which we can you know like navigate there so they think like well where can they um grab a hold of their responsibility and and then as a consequence of doing that engage in adventure and have an impact that is good for them and good for the world that that's how do how do they find that I think there's ve there's very practical answers to those questions so two of the most two of the highest order characterizations of the Divine in the biblical library is calling and conscience and you could think about
显然很可笑，没人真信这个。我们前面谈到怎么把这件事落到实处——就是那种努力那种从潜在的混乱走向秩序的召唤，它从整理自己的物理空间开始。如果我们要把靶心的圈再往外扩一点，对那些正在琢磨的听众来说，他们到底在哪里接收到那个召唤？他们怎么找到自己的天职？责任和冒险也许就是那个让我们能够导航的指南针。那他们会想，我到底能从哪里抓住自己的责任然后因为这么做而进入冒险，并且产生一种对自己好、对世界也好的影响他们要怎么找到那个？我觉得这些问题有非常实际的答案在圣经典籍里，对“神性”最高阶的两种刻画，一个是召唤（calling），一个是良知（conscience）。你可以把它们看成是正面情绪和负面情绪的
2:29:23
those you could think about those as integrated manifestations of positive and negative emotion so imagine there's a pathway forward to your aim okay your negative emotion tells you when you deviate from the pathway and your positive emotion tells you when you're progressing along the pathway okay now imagine that there's a voice of your integrated positive emotion and there's a voice of your integrated negative emotion calling that's what fills you with enthusias iasm and that root word of that is Theos right deos that's God calling conscience okay so now that beckons you forward so how do you find that some things bother you those are your problems and you might think I don't want to have any problems it's like no you've got some problems you can tell that cuz those things bug you that's your conscience calling you to your destiny those problems okay calling there's some things that interest you right and you don't get to pick them exactly they just sort of make themselves manifest like
整合性显现。想象有一条通往你目标的道路，好，你的负面情绪告诉你什么时候偏离了这条路，而你的正面情绪告诉你什么时候在沿着这条路前进。好，现在想象你整合后的正面情绪有一个声音，你整合后的负面情绪也有一个声音。召唤，就是让你充满 enthusiasm（热忱）的那种东西，而这个词的词根是 theos，对吧，theos 就是神召唤，良知。好，那它在前方召唤你。那你怎么找到它？有些事会让你不舒服，那些就是你的问题，而你可能会想，我不想有任何问题。不，你是有一些问题的，你能感觉得到，因为那些事一直在烦你——那是你的良知在把你召向你的命运，就是那些问题。好，还有召唤：有些事会让你感兴趣，对吧，而你并不能真正挑选它们，它们就那样自己显现出来，就像燃烧的荆棘显现给摩西一样，因为那
2:30:25
the burning bush did to Moses cuz that's an example that's the symbolic representation of calling it's the dynamism between calling and conscience that orients people upwards right that's the pillar of flame and the pillar of Darkness that guides the Israelites across the desert when they're lost calling beckons conscience provides disciplinary limitations that's a good way of thinking about it so you can see that some things are good you ask yourself what bothers me about me okay now you have a domain you think well man some of those things I just I don't know how to fix them fine don't fix them fix some of the things you could fix that's that we talked about that or make your goddamn bed in the morning like you could do that and it's like you see people their lives are so chaotic like they're their living environment every single bit of it is a catastrophic mess some sometimes multiple Generations deep it's just chaos everywhere it's like where do you start dealing with chaos wherever you
就是个例子，那是召唤的象征性表现。正是召唤与良知之间的张力把人引向上方，对吧，那就是那根火柱和那根黑暗之柱，在以色列人迷失时引导他们穿越沙漠。召唤在前方招手，良知提供纪律性的约束，这是个很好的理解方式。所以你能看出有些事是好的。你可以问自己：我身上有什么让我自己不舒服？好，现在你有了一个范围。你会想，天，有些事我根本不知道怎么修好——行，那就别修它们，去修那些你能修的。这个我们谈过了，或者早上把你那该死的床铺好，这你总能做到吧。就好像你会看到有些人的生活极其混乱，他们的居住环境，每一个角落都是灾难性的一团糟，有时候还是好几代人累积下来的，到处都是混乱。那你从哪里开始应对混乱？从任何一个
2:31:27
can put something in order by your own standards of order and then see what happens because what'll happen is now you got a little like little corner of order and now you're a little more well situated and then you'll be able to see what the next what's the next step and you might think well it looks hopeless because there's just chaos everywhere it's like it's okay hey because the process is exponential so even if you start nowhere if you keep doubling you're going to get somewhere and faster than you think and well the same thing applies when you're plummeting into the abyss un degenerative stuff a colleague of mine who he's geneticist said you know it takes many many many generations to evolve a species it doesn't take very many to devolve a species mut negative mutations can build on another and crash a species very very fast I think our psyche is is similar in that way well that's an anthropic problem there's way more ways to make something complex worse than there are to make it better right that's why it's a straight
你能按照自己的秩序标准把东西整理好的地方开始，然后看看会发生什么。因为接下来会发生的是你有了一小块、一小角的秩序，你的处境就好了那么一点，然后你就能看清下一步是什么。你可能会觉得，这看起来没希望啊，因为到处都是混乱。但没关系，因为这个过程是指数式的。所以哪怕你从零开始，只要不断翻倍，你就会走到某个地方，而且比你想的更快。而当你正往深渊里坠落、陷进那些退化性的东西时，也是同样的道理。我有个同事他是遗传学家，他说，进化出一个物种需要非常非常多代，但要让一个物种退化并不需要几代。负面突变会一个叠一个，非常非常快地把一个物种搞垮。我觉得我们的心灵在这方面也很类似嗯，那是个熵的问题——把一个复杂的东西弄坏的方式，远比把它变好的方式多得多对吧，所以那才是一条又直又窄的路。我父亲从阿根廷来到这个国家，他成长在
2:32:32
and narrow path my father came to this country from Argentina and he grew up in a lot of uh surrounded by a lot of political chaos came to the country became a physicist probably because he likes order he's a very orderly Guy and um it was probably in the early 90s that we went I was born in 75 so probably yeah early 90s that we went to a movie theater uh together to see a movie and he said it as we were walking in he said look and I said what and he said this is the beginning of the end and I said what do you mean he said we're degenerating as a society and I said why and he said there are people here in their pajamas right right and obviously they weren't in their pajamas but they come in in kind of like bath you know bathroom slippers and they like they weren't slovenly but they weren't taking care of themselves clearly worse worse care what other people thought right that's right they were making a public display of their lack of care right exactly EXA that's a narcissistic aspect to that too
很多——周围全是政治动荡。他来到这个国家，成了物理学家，大概是因为他喜欢秩序吧，他是个非常有条理的人大概是九十年代初，我们去——我是75年生的，所以对，大概是九十年代初，我们一起去电影院看电影。进场的时候他说，他说“你看”，我说“什么”，他说“这是崩坏的开始”。我说“什么意思”，他说“我们这个社会正在退化”。我说“为什么”，他说“这里有人穿着睡衣”。对对，他们显然并不是真穿着睡衣，但他们进来时穿的是那种浴室拖鞋之类的东西，他们倒也不算邋遢，但显然没在好好打理自己。更糟的是——更糟的是，根本不在乎别人怎么想。对，没错，他们是在公开展示自己的不在乎。对，正是如此。这里面也有自恋的成分。是啊是啊，他这点说得对。而我
2:33:28
yeah yeah he's right about that and I thought at the time like he's being judgmental I was a teen right he's being judgmental Etc and um but you know I would say from 1990 until fairly recently hopefully things are shifting for the better now but um there has seemed to be it's kind of chaos out there now I think it's wonderful that people can express themselves by wearing clothes that they feel represent them Etc but this wasn't that this was a lack of care look voluntary the what would you say the evocation of voluntary chaos that's one thing the degeneration into chaos through sloth let's say that's not an adventure that's carelessness in all things masquerading as an adventure I'm so cool I don't care it's like you're not cool you're just useless and you're covering your uselessness with a veneer of revolutionary morality it's like there's nothing in that that's up like if people want to deviate in the manner they present themselves in dress and they're doing that because they have a
当时觉得他太爱评判人了，我那会儿还是个青少年嘛，觉得他在乱下判断之类的。但你知道，我会说，从1990年到不久之前——但愿现在情况正在往好的方向变——但外面似乎一直有点混乱。我觉得人们能通过穿自己觉得能代表自己的衣服来表达自我，这很棒等等，但那不是这么回事，那是一种不在乎。你看，自愿的——怎么说呢——自愿地召唤混乱那是一回事；而因为懒惰而堕入混乱，那不是冒险，那是对一切事情的漫不经心却假装成冒险——“我特别酷，我不在乎”。不，你不酷，你只是没用，而且你正在用一层革命道德的外衣掩盖你的没用。那里面没有任何向上的东西。比如说如果人们想在穿着打扮上有所偏离，而且他们这么做是因为有某种
2:34:30
inspiration or a purpose then that's completely different than just being so cool you don't care and that's not cool there's nothing about that that's cool and you know you might say and you had this sense when you were a kid that your dad was overreacting it's like yeah well if you look you can see things before other people see them and he and he came from a place that had gone through a fair number of very rough times and so he could have been perfectly accurate in what he saw highly likely that's another example of the center disintegrating right where do you think we are now in uh in the United States I think right in terms of how we represent hold and represent order versus chaos I mean we were talking about some of the you know this uh these social media posts recently we just had a a public public display of an assassination maybe you know I hadn't intended on going there but I think it's worth talking about um it was weird I got pulled into this through tangential reasons this Luigi manion's last tweet was a podcast
灵感或目的，那就跟“我酷到根本不在乎”完全不同，而后者一点都不酷那里面没有任何地方是酷的。你知道，你可能会说——你小时候也确实有这种感觉，觉得你爸反应过度了。是啊，可是如果你懂得看，你能在别人看见之前就看见某些东西。而他他来自一个经历过相当多艰难时期的地方，所以他当时看到的东西很可能完全准确，非常有可能。那是又一个“中心正在瓦解”的例子，对吧。那你觉得我们现在在美国处在什么位置？就我们如何持守和呈现秩序与混乱而言。我们之前聊到一些你知道，最近这些社交媒体上的帖子——我们刚刚目睹了一起被公开展示的刺杀，也许你知道，我本来没打算聊到这儿，但我觉得值得谈。很奇怪，我是因为一些很边缘的原因被卷进来的：路易吉·曼吉奥内最后一条推文是我和乔纳森·海特
2:35:39
cover of of my episode with Jonathan height um and some media Outlets tried to make something of that you know but clearly he was very smart clearly he had for thought to his actions he 3D printed this gun gun it seems is all alleged now but it seems to be pointing that direction he seems to not want the police to go investigate anybody else you know because he claims there's no one else acting with him Etc he um clearly was trying to make a statement but the statement was was a combination of statements about the the um Insurance system um sort of anti-establishment because of his affinity for uh kazinski unibomber bombings but at the same time he uh he didn't really seem to fall into kind of left leaning or right leaning politics squarely he was kind of all over the place so you're you're a trained clinician you think there's some schizotypal or schizophrenic type organization there in his head or lack of organization I mean what are we to make of this and we and we had to see somebody assassinated shot in the back
那期节目的播客封面，一些媒体就想借此做点文章。但很明显他非常聪明，很明显他对自己的行动是有预谋的。他用3D打印做了那把枪——现在这些都还只是指控，但看起来是朝那个方向的。他似乎不希望警方去调查其他任何人，因为他声称没有别人和他一起行动，等等他显然是想表达某种声明，但那个声明是好几种东西的混合，关于保险体系，某种反建制——因为他对卡辛斯基、对“大学炸弹客”的爆炸案有认同感——但与此同时他又并不真的清晰地落在左翼或右翼政治里，他有点到处乱跑你是受过训练的临床心理学家，你觉得他脑子里存在某种分裂型或精神分裂型的组织方式，或者说缺乏组织吗？我们该怎么理解这件事？我们还不得不看着有人被刺杀，从背后中枪
2:36:43
multi guess I would say the first thing I would be looking for is pathological narcissism I disordered thought possibly but he was quite successful academically like the typical pattern for something like schizophrenic dis dissolution is very very much difficulty in maintaining so discipline striving in a highly intellectual atmosphere for examp he a valedictorian he went to school graduated i' think more luciferian grandiosity and the intellect is particularly prone to that you know the the the the archetypal representation of the intellect that overreaches is Lucifer right God's God's highest Angel gone most catastrophically wrong which means that the best thing in its place is the worst thing on the top that happens with sexuality it can happen with aggression it certainly happens with the intellect and so I think he's a worshipper of his own intellect and believed that he was the guy who could make the decision even of life and death which means he took onto himself the role of ultimate judge and that's what
我想我首先会去寻找的，是病理性自恋。思维紊乱也有可能，但他在学业上相当成功。像精神分裂性解体这类情况的典型模式，是非常非常难以维持在高度智力化环境里的自律和进取——而他是毕业生代表他念完了书、顺利毕业。我更倾向于认为是那种路西法式的自大，而智识特别容易陷进去。你知道智识过度僭越的原型表现就是路西法，对吧，上帝最高的天使堕落得最为惨烈。这意味着，在它本位上最好的东西，一旦居于顶端反而成了最坏的东西。这在性方面会发生，在攻击性上会发生，在智识上更是一定会发生。所以我认为他是个崇拜自己智识的人，并且相信自己就是那个可以做出决定的人——甚至是生死的决定也就是说他把终极审判者的角色揽到了自己身上，科伦拜枪击案的那个孩子也是这么做的，而且
2:37:51
the kid who shot up Coline did too and said in his own writings he's the judge and that's like narcissistic Beyond Comprehension and the fact that he's being celebrated well that's an echo of that moralizing narcissism that's deeply embedded in our culture deeply embedded and so yeah it's a very ugly it's very ugly I see so we're going to what we're now vigilantes in relationship to the corporate World judge jury and executioner and the reason we've taken on that rule is because we unlike let's say the people who run healthc care Enterprises we truly care for the sick and oppressed it's like do you know do you know yeah there's so much moralizing in our culture it's beyond it's really beyond belief I was going to say all these CEOs now are going to need personal security that's hardly going to you know cause them to adjust their you know premiums or something downward I mean I think as people get more scared they tend to uh you know up double yeah they tend to double down I mean earlier
他在自己的文字里说他就是审判者，这是一种超乎想象的自恋，而他居然还被人歌颂，这正是那种道德优越感式自恋的回响，它深深扎根在我们的文化里，扎得非常深所以是啊，这非常丑陋，非常丑陋。我明白了，所以我们现在是要成为针对企业界的私刑者，集法官、陪审团和刽子手于一身，而我们之所以揽下这个角色，是因为我们不像那些经营医疗保健企业的人，我们是真正关心病人和被压迫者的。就像是，你懂吗？是啊，我们的文化里到处都是这种道德说教简直到了难以置信的地步。我本来想说，现在这些CEO都得请私人保安了，这可不太可能让他们把保费什么的往下调吧。我觉得人越是害怕就越倾向于，你懂的，加倍。是啊，他们会变本加厉。我们前面聊到过“远距离作用”
2:38:54
we were talking about action at a distance I mean clearly um this Manion guy has is aware High status so ignored or notorious there's a hard choice for young men they'll pick notorious many of them will and no wonder because status is everything it's hard to do good things over long periods time right it's not hard to be good it's just hard to do big it's hard to do good things it's hard to do big things I mean I think that's one reason why I'm very happy that Elon is being celebrated you don't have to agree with him politically but the Rockets going the idea of going to Mars trying to U make sure that our our species replaces itself I mean these are Big important Endeavors I mean I the reason well and he can clearly do them I mean he's he's been insanely successful doing five possible things simultaneously right that's not fluke no right once probably not fluke even once but you know the probability that it's fluke once is higher five times no that's that's a reputation right and so he's a he's a
这个曼吉奥内显然是意识到高地位的问题，所以要么默默无闻，要么臭名昭著，这对年轻男性来说是个艰难的选择他们会选臭名昭著，很多人都会，这也不奇怪，因为地位就是一切，而长期坚持做好事太难了对，做个好人不难，难的是做大事，做好事很难，做大事很难。我是说我觉得这就是我很高兴看到埃隆被人称颂的原因之一，你不必在政治上认同他但火箭确实在飞，去火星的设想，努力确保我们这个物种能延续下去，我是说这些都是重大而重要的事业。而且他显然做得到，他成功得离谱同时干成五件不可能的事，对吧，那不是运气。对，一次的话也许还不算运气，但是你知道，一次是侥幸的概率还比较高，五次就不可能了。那是一种信誉。所以他是一个
2:40:08
from first principal sort of guy so yeah I wouldn't bet against Elon Musk so and that is independent of his political stance and is it ult to do good things well it's hard it's hard it's hard it's hard to do long-term good things because they're longterm that's what I was trying to say right but it's also intensely the thing is it's also this is that back to that issue of the relationship between responsibility and Adventure it's like if the aim is true the voyage is worthwhile and so and that happens right away like you know you're very successful with your podcast but my suspicion are you've deeply enjoyed it since its onset well so so well that means that some of your pleasure is satiation related you've become successful but if that was your aim you would have failed as a podcaster because definely podast I definitely would have failed oh definitely oh absolutely 100% because it wasn't the pursuit of pleasure per se it's sort of like the difference between you know is it easier to be the class clown or um the top of
从第一性原理出发的人，所以是的，我不会赌埃隆·马斯克输，这跟他的政治立场无关。做好事难吗？难，很难，很难，长期做好事很难，因为它是长期的，这就是我想说的。但同时它也非常……问题在于，这又回到了那个责任与冒险之间关系的问题。就像是，如果目标是正确的，这趟旅程就是值得的，而且这种回报是立刻就来的。比如说你的播客非常成功，但我猜你从一开始就深深享受这件事。嗯，那就意味着你的部分快乐是来自满足感，你成功了，但如果那本来就是你的目标，你作为一个播客主播反而会失败，因为我肯定会失败的，绝对会，百分之百，因为这不是为了追求快感本身。这有点像，你知道，当班里的活宝容易，还是当班里的
2:41:17
the class it's just much easier to be the class clown all you have to do is crack 10 jokes one of them hits you know and you're you're safe but you're you're actually dissolving as you go right right right well that's the prioritization of the short term over the long run I mean Rogan's a perfectly appropriate example because he's sort of like the archetype of the successful podcaster it's like what's Joe doing well he's doing what he's always done he sits down with his producer one guy and he talks to people he wants to talk to about things he wants to talk to them about that's the whole thing the whole and it's you know the left the lefties who refused to talk to people in the podcast world for 10 years are now proclaiming to everyone who listen that they should have built their own you know alternative media apparatus and they could have participated in the one that exists now at any time had they shown the least proclivity to do so how it's not such an easy thing to build because it wasn't something that
第一名容易？当活宝要容易得多，你只要讲十个笑话，有一个能逗乐大家你就安全了，但你其实是在一点点消解自己。对对对，那就是把短期置于长期之上的优先排序。罗根就是个特别合适的例子，因为他算是成功播客主播的原型。乔在干什么？他做的还是他一直在做的事，他跟他的制作人，就一个人，坐下来然后跟他想聊的人聊他想聊的话题，就这么回事，全部而那些十年来拒绝上播客跟人对话的左翼人士，现在却在向所有愿意听的人宣称他们本来应该建立自己的另类媒体体系，其实他们随时都可以参与到现有的这个体系里来只要他们当初表现出哪怕一丁点意愿。而这东西没那么容易建，因为它不是
2:42:20
Joe built it was something that happened around him in consequence of the nature of his Pursuit and that's the case for virtually all the successful podcasters I think people forget how Joe's podcast started do you you might know this story I'll keep it brief but um he was a comedian at The Comedy Store he had done some television and things of that sort but um and people can find this online the videos are on YouTube where a comedian was stealing Ari shaffir's jokes so Joe got up on stage and said there's a there's a um there's some ethics in the comedy community people can buy jokes but you you don't steal jokes apparently and there's an etiquette as well so apparently he confronted this guy in front of the audience and said you're stealing his jokes and the guy challenged him and Joe said no like Joe was stood up in the name of justice for a friend of his and my understanding could be wrong about this but my understanding is that Joe was then banished from that particular particular Comedy Club so what did he do
乔刻意“建”出来的，它是围绕着他自然发生的，是他所追求的事情本身的结果，几乎所有成功的播客主播都是这样。我觉得大家忘了乔的播客是怎么开始的，你可能知道这个故事我长话短说。他当时是Comedy Store的喜剧演员，也上过一些电视节目之类的这些人在网上都能找到，视频就在YouTube上。当时有个喜剧演员在偷阿里·沙菲尔的段子，于是乔上台说喜剧圈是有一套伦理的，段子可以买，但你不能偷段子。而且也有一套行规。所以他当着观众的面质问那个人，说你在偷他的段子，那人不服，乔说不行。乔是为了一个朋友挺身而出、为正义发声我的理解可能有误，但据我了解，乔因此被那家喜剧俱乐部封杀了。那他怎么做呢？他回家打开笔记本电脑，和布莱恩·雷德班还有另外几个
2:43:21
he went home he popped open his laptop and he and Brian Redban and a few other folks started what eventually became the Joe Rogan podcast it came out of a um an Impulse to stand up for the truth which I think is an important thing for people to understand because it helps you understand Joe um need be uning in that yeah yeah and and I think yeah and you know he doesn't claim to always be right but his um his pursuit of the truth has um been a driving force for the podcast he claims consistently to not be sufficiently right that's why he listens and asks questions you don't ask genuine questions if you believe that you already know everything you only ask real questions if you don't think that you know enough and Joe wouldn't be perennially attractive to his audiences if he wasn't asking the same questions that the audience would like to have answered right he's genuinely curious absolutely well musk himself said you know when when I interviewed him he talked about a terrible existential crisis that he had
人一起，开始做了后来的乔·罗根播客。它源于一种为真相挺身而出的冲动，我觉得这一点很重要大家应该明白，因为这能帮你理解乔。是啊，我也这么认为是的，他并不声称自己永远正确，但他对真相的追求一直是这个播客的驱动力。他一贯声称自己还不够正确，所以他才会倾听、才会提问。如果你觉得自己什么都懂了，就不会问出真诚的问题；只有当你觉得自己知道得还不够时，才会问出真问题。而乔之所以能长期吸引他的听众，正是因为他问的就是听众自己想知道答案的问题。对，他是真的好奇。绝对是。马斯克自己也说过，我采访他的时候，他谈到他十三四岁时经历的一场可怕的存在主义危机，这在那些智力出众的人身上
2:44:30
when he was 13 14 which is not atypical of you know out people with outstanding intellects let's say um and he resolved that by recognizing that the quest is the source of meaning and so he took it upon himself self to confront difficult problems and try to solve them and he found that to be sufficiently gratifying so his existential crisis resolved itself and that's very much the same pattern that Rogan is exemplifying and you in your Pursuits and you can see what impact it has on the public you know and we were I was talking with one of your staff members before this podcast about your lectures say in Australia and so you're in the weird position where 5,000 people come and listen to a biologist lecture spontaneously for what 90 minutes like what the hell well that's just an indication of how compelled people are by anything approximating a genuine Quest it doesn't even matter the direction right it matters the commitment and that capacity to explore and transmit and that is a manifestation
其实并不罕见。他后来是通过认识到“追寻本身就是意义的来源”而走出来的，于是他主动去面对困难的问题并试图解决它们，他发现这足以带来满足感于���他的存在主义危机自行化解了。罗根身上体现的是同样的模式，你在你的事业里也是，而且你能看到它对公众产生了什么影响。录这期播客之前我还跟你的一位同事聊起你在澳大利亚的演讲，你现在处在一个很奇怪的位置：五千人自发跑来听一个生物学家讲课，讲九十分钟这算什么事啊。这恰恰说明，人们对任何接近真正“追寻”的东西有多么着迷，方向甚至都不重要，重要的是那份投入，以及探索和传递的能力，而那正是
2:45:44
of the word that redeems I love this idea or what you just said that it doesn't even so M so much matter the direction as much as the commitment a colleague of mine at Stanford who I um respect tremendously Anna lmy who wrote the book dopamine Nation she's the head of our dual diagnosis Addiction Center she was the one who really truly deserves credit for bringing dopamine into the public discussion over the last few years she initiated that talking about how big inflections in dopamine that are very fast that aren't preceded by effort AKA drugs of abuse behavioral addictions Etc leave us below Baseline with our dopamine and then people will engage in more of the behavior it drives us further and further and further that's kind of the the principle of it um I was talking to her about how people get sober and the conversation turned to how do young people find their purpose it was it was very interesting she said let's talk about finding purpose everyone nowadays wants to know what their purpose is and she said the way
“救赎之道”的一种显现。我很喜欢你刚才说的这个想法——方向甚至没有那么重要，重要的是投入。我在斯坦福有一位我极其敬重的同事，安娜·伦布克，《多巴胺民族》的作者，她是我们双重诊断成瘾中心的负责人。过去几年真正把多巴胺带进公众讨论的功劳应该归她，是她发起的，她讲的是那些非常迅速、事先没有付出努力的多巴胺大幅波动——也就是成瘾性药物、行为成瘾等等——会让我们的多巴胺掉到基线以下，然后人们就会更多地重复那个行为，把我们越推越远，这大致就是它的原理。我跟她聊人是怎么戒断的，聊着聊着话题就转到了年轻人怎么找到自己的人生目标。这特别有意思，她说，我们来聊聊找目标吧，现在每个人都想知道自己的目标是什么。她说，找到目标的方法就是走到你家前院去，看看草坪上的落叶
2:46:40
you find your purpose is by going out on your front lawn and seeing if the leaves need to be raped sounds familiar right you find purpose by um figuring out how you can be of use at progressively larger and larger spheres away from yourself and in doing that and the present and in doing that you start to hear the calling and you find your purpose and it as you said or it reveals itself to you the same thing right yeah so I think you two would be enjoy a conversation at some point important thing to return to because people are often curious about what to do practically it's like okay first this is what Jacob does Jacob in Old Testament stories he eventually becomes Israel right and so that's his name and Israel means we who wrestle with God now Jacob is a bad guy when the story starts and he leaves his home and the perverse influence of his mother and his criminal betraying past behind and he decides that he's going to aim up and that night he makes an altar and he makes a sacrifice and that night he has a dream
是不是该耙一耙了。听着很熟悉吧？你是通过弄清楚自己能在离自己越来越远、越来越大的范围里如何发挥作用，来找到目标的。在这个过程中，在当下，在这个过程中，你开始听到那份召唤，然后你就找到了自己的目标。就像你说的，它是自己向你显现出来的，是一回事。对，所以我觉得你们俩什么时候聊一聊会很愉快。这一点值得回头细说，因为人们经常想知道实际该怎么做。好，首先，这是雅各所做的事。旧约故事里的雅各，他后来成了以色列，这就是他的名字，而“以色列”的意思是“与神摔跤的人”。故事开始时雅各是个坏人，他离开家，把母亲的不良影响和自己那些欺诈背叛的过去抛在身后，决定要向上看齐，而那天晚上他筑了一座祭坛，献上祭品，当晚他梦见一架通往天国的阶梯
2:47:46
of a staircase that reaches up to heaven which is now what he's walking up right and so he finds his his purpose he finds his Adventure as a consequence of his decision to be better okay so now you want to find your purpose okay first thing you have to do you have to review how wretched and miserable you actually are and you have to face that and then you have to think I'd rather not have that and it has to be true and then you have to aim up now you don't know what that means because like you're pretty scattered and dissolute but at least you got the damn intent in mind and then you have to be willing to make the sacrifices right along the way okay then what happens well then the pathway will reveal itself to you in increments calling is there something around here that I could fix that I would fix that's a great question is there something hand that I could fix that I would fix it might be something low cuz especially when you first get going you're not good for anything so you might have to start
而他现在正沿着这架梯子往上走。所以他找到了自己的目标，找到了自己的冒险，而这正是他决心变好的结果好，那么现在你想找到自己的目标。第一件事，你得审视自己实际上有多可悲、多糟糕，你必须直面这一点，然后你得想，我不想再这样了，而且这必须是真心的。接着你得向上看齐。此刻你并不知道那意味着什么，因为你相当散漫堕落，但至少你心里有了那个该死的意图，然后你得愿意在这一路上做出必要的牺牲。好，接下来会怎样？接下来道路就会一点一点向你显现。召唤就是：这附近有没有什么我能修好、而且我愿意去修的东西？这是个很好的问题。手边有没有什么我能修好、而且我愿意去修的？可能是很不起眼的小事，因为尤其在你刚起步的时候，你什么都干不好，所以你可能得从相当琐碎的事开始，但这
2:48:58
with something pretty trivial but it doesn't matter because you start getting better is there something that bothers me that's conscience that I could set right in some small way well that's there for everyone right in the midst of the most catastrophic mess that pathway you might even say look The More Mess Around you the more unstructured possibility you have it had and it's true you know it's like I'm not trying to be a poly an Ana about this I know how difficult that is but it is the case that the more mess at hand that you can see the more opportunity that's there CU well if you can see that it's a mess then you can see the pathway to to cleaning it up well so do it do it see what happens that's the adventure what's going to happen in my class I my maps of meeting class I used to have students do this as a project and one of the projects was find something around you in your neighborhood wherever in your family that isn't set right and see if you could set it right just write down what happens well one student in
没关系，因为你会开始变好。有没有什么让我心里不舒服的事——那就是良知——是我能在某个小地方纠正过来的？每个人身边都有这样的事，哪怕是在最灾难性的混乱之中，那条路你甚至可以说，你周围的混乱越多，你拥有的未成形的可能性就越多。这是真的，我不是想在这件事上唱什么盲目乐观的高调，我知道那有多难，但事实就是，你眼前能看到的混乱越多，那里的机会就越多。因为你既然能看出它是一团乱，你就能看到把它收拾干净的路径。那就去做啊，去做，看看会发生什么，那就是冒险。我在课上，我那门《意义的地图》课上，以前会让学生做这样一个作业，其中一个作业就是：找一件你身边的、你社区里的、或者你家里的、没有摆正的事，看看你能不能把它摆正，然后把发生的事写下来。有一个学生特别典型，他母亲去世了，家庭有点分崩离析，于是他决定试着
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particular he decided his mother had died and the family kind of fragmented and so he decided he would take try to take on the role of mother you know be responsible for the household operating well grew him up like mad as you can imagine he ran into all sorts of weird resistances right cuz his family was upset that he was doing what mom used to do and like he just had a tremendously complex Adventure as a consequence of his willingness to pursue this was obviously necessary because the alternative was that his family was going to fall apart it's like that's there for everyone you say well my circumstances are so difficult it's like fair enough so are everybody else's by the way but that means there's a lot of man yes I fix it a bit and that's ridiculously entertaining and unpredictable and that in itself is a great deal you have no idea what's going to happen just like you didn't know what happened when you started the podcast why' you start it I had it for me I felt a compulsion um to share what I knew but
承担起母亲的角色，你知道，负责让家里正常运转。可想而知，这让他飞速地成熟起来。他遇到了各种奇怪的阻力，因为家里人对他做妈妈以前做的事感到不安。他因为愿意去做这件事，经历了一场极其复杂的冒险，而这件事显然是必须做的，因为另一种可能就是他的家庭彻底散掉。这样的机会对每个人都存在。你说，我的处境太艰难了，那好吧，顺便说一句，别人的处境也一样难，但这恰恰意味着有很多东西可以修啊。是的，我修好了一点，而这本身就极其有趣、极其难以预料，光这一点就很了不起。你完全不知道会发生什么，就像你当初开始做播客时也不知道会发生什么一样。你当初为什么要做？对我来说，我感到一种冲动，想把我知道的东西分享出去。因为疫情期间所有人都只盯着疫苗和封控
2:51:09
because during the pandemic everyone was so focused on vaccines and lockdowns that no one was talking about the reality that everyone was facing including sorry Josh Gordon I know him through time um our director of the National Institute sub mental health not a single thing out there about hey folks if you're going to be indoors this much get some sunlight in your eyes in the morning or else you're going to have trouble sleeping trouble sleeping equates to mental health issues stress uncertainty my lab was working on ways to regulate stress through deliberate breathing through other mechanisms it was like well I want people to have tools zero cost tools to deal with their stress us to help them regulate their circadian biology because those Wick out to countering the negative forces that were on us which are social order was disrupted people are at home so it was a desire to give people tools that I knew existed that I was knowledgeable about and I had a a longstanding kind of and growing compulsion that I wanted to talk
没有人在谈每个人正在面对的现实，包括——抱歉了，乔什·戈登，我跟他认识很久了，我们国家心理健康研究所的所长——外面根本没有任何人说：嘿各位，如果你们要在室内待这么久早上记得让眼睛接触点阳光，不然你会睡不好，而睡不好就等于心理健康问题、压力、不确定感。我的实验室当时在研究通过刻意呼吸和其他机制来调节压力的方法我就想，我希望人们能有一些工具，零成本的工具，来应对他们的压力，帮助他们调节自己的昼夜节律生物学，因为这些东西能一路延伸出去，对抗当时压在我们身上的那些负面力量——社会秩序被打乱，人们被困在家里。所以那是一种愿望，想把我知道存在、我又懂的工具给到大家同时我还有一种由来已久、而且越来越强的冲动，就是想聊神经科学，因为它实在太
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about Neuroscience because it's so darn cool right okay so it's a logical there there was a lot of energy behind the the the mission but then there was a calling the calling was from hearing about people suffering it's like well of course you're not sleeping well I mean not only are there a million things to worry about right now people aren't working Etc but you're not getting sunlight in your eyes you need to get outside you need to you know and then there's the whole socialization thing and look whatever people's circumstances there are things that they could do and so I felt that calling and my conscience told me that I have the knowledge so why would why would I Cloister it cloer with it at home that's like what good is that so I just started blabbing on the internet right right that's yeah well that's a that's a perfectly you know you can think well that's a logical extension of your subsidiary calling to be a teacher and a professor you're already a researcher you're already a professor so you're
酷了。对吧，所以这是合乎逻辑的，这个使命背后有很多能量，但同时也有一种召唤那份召唤来自听到人们的痛苦。就像是，你当然睡不好啊，我是说，不光是现在有一百万件事让人操心、人们没法工作等等，而且你的眼睛根本没晒到阳光，你得出门，你得……然后还有整个社交的问题。不管人们的处境如何，总有一些事是他们可以做的所以我感受到了那份召唤，而我的良知告诉我，我拥有这些知识，那我为什么要把它藏起来、闷在家里呢？那有什么意义？所以我就开始在网上絮絮叨叨了。对对，是的，这是一个非常你可以这么想，这是你作为教师和教授那份次级召唤的合乎逻辑的延伸你本来就是研究者，本来就是教授，所以你一直在探究知识、传递知识，那就像是，看来你可以
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investigating and transmitting knowledge it's like well looks like you could do that on a broader scale and the technolog is there why not explore that that's a perfectly reasonable and you can see the interplay of calling and conscience there that's a lovely way of characterizing the voice of the Divine which is is how it's characterized repeated Elijah Elijah is the prophet who is appears with Christ when he's transfigured on the mount in the New Testament it's Elijah and Moses Elijah is the first person in human history who identifies the Divine with conscience that's his contribution that's a major psychological Revolution right it's an unheralded transformation in understanding it's like it's not the storm it's not the forest fire it's not the earthquake it's not the god of nature nature he's the originator of the phrase the still Small Voice right like that's a that the notion that you're conscience is the voice of the Divine my God there's there's there's virtually no dis no Discovery there's no proposition
把这件事做得更大规模一些，技术也现成，为什么不去试试呢？这完全合情合理。你能从中看到召唤与良知的相互作用，这是对“神圣之声”的一种很美的描述方式，而它也正是被这样反复描述的。以利亚，以利亚就是新约里耶稣在山上变容时与他一同显现的先知是以利亚和摩西。以利亚是人类历史上第一个把神圣与良知等同起来的人这是他的贡献，是一场重大的心理学革命，一次未被充分认识的理解上的转变，就像是，它并不是暴风——不是山火，不是地震，也不是自然之神，他是那个说法的源头——那句「细微的声音」，对吧，就是说你的良知就是神的声音，我的天哪，几乎没有任何发现、没有任何命题比这更具革命性了，所以
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more revolutionary than that and so that's why Elijah is a prophet of you know primary status and I just see no reason at all not to take that claim seriously it's like you come up with an explanation for your conscience it tells you things you don't want to hear so how is that you I I mean you have to gerrymander the definition of you for that to be you no I absolutely believe that things come from outside of us certainly for me and I you know I I'm now very much a devotee of prayer I pray before this podcast what do you pray well before this podcast I prayed for um Clarity of mind to be able to um to learn from you and to help transmit that knowledge to people in a way that would be useful to them yeah to um for sustained Focus for um for the ability to also let go and and not try and control or or lead with questions and to um and to allow the the um a sense of of Randomness and Serendipity to to make it what it what it is in trusting that it's in service to the the listeners right well that's a
以利亚才是最高等级的先知，而我实在看不出有任何理由不去认真对待这个说法，认真对待它，就像是——你得给你的良知找个解释，它会告诉你一些你不想听的话，那这怎么会是「你」呢？我是说，你得把「你」的定义改得面目全非，才能说那是你。是的，我绝对相信有些东西是来自我们之外的，至少对我来说是这样，而且我现在非常笃信祷告，我在录这期播客之前就祷告过。你祷告什么？嗯，录这期播客之前，我祈求头脑清明，能够向你学习，并且把这些知识以对听众有用的方式传递出去。是啊，还祈求持续的专注，祈求能够放下，不去试图控制，不用问题去引导，以及让某种随机感和机缘巧合来成就它本来的样子，相信这一切都是在服务于听众。对，这是一个
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very that's a very precise and properly formulated prayer yeah I pray before every podcast I pray before going to sleep Beach and I've been doing this for about um for a little over a year I always quietly SEC secret why why did you decide to do that my coming to the whole notion of prayer and God Etc um was complicated in the backdrop in the sense that I always secretly prayed um always secretly secretly prayed and then about a year about a year and a half ago a guy that works on my security team um started talking to me about the Bible we started talking about God and it made sense I started reading the Bible I'm not through it yet um and I started praying and I had a number of experiences as a consequence of praying clearly as a consequence of of prayer that made me realize that prayer doesn't give me a capacity of any sort it just allows certain things that I believe are inside of me to to uh to come out and for proper prayer establishes aim yeah that's right oh yeah well why wouldn't you establish
非常——这是一个非常精确、表述得非常恰当的祷告。是啊，我每期播客前都祷告，睡前也祷告，我这样做大概有一年多了，我一直都是悄悄地、私下地——你为什么决定这么做的？我走向祷告和神这整套观念的过程，背景其实挺复杂的，因为我一直都在偷偷祷告，一直都是悄悄地、私下地祷告，然后大概一年、一年半之前，我安保团队里的一个人开始跟我聊《圣经》，我们开始聊神，这让我觉得讲得通。我开始读《圣经》，还没读完，然后我开始祷告，并且因为祷告而有了一些经历，很明显是祷告带来的，这些经历让我意识到，祷告并不是赋予我某种能力，它只是让某些我相信本来就在我内心的东西得以显现出来。而恰当的祷告能确立目标。是的，没错。是啊，为什么不确立
2:56:23
your aim like why wouldn't you take a moment before you start your podcast to remember what the hell you're trying to accomplish and to have it firmly in mind yeah and and it felt different so I should say that you know I I have this little list that I sometimes do I'll say you know uh deliberate breathing AK breath work can allow you to shift your state hypnosis is a tool that can allow you to solve a particular problem because it has some you know aspect of neuroplasticity we there um non-sleep deep rest which is a thing that was you know built out of this this practice called yoga nedro where you go into a an awake but deeply relaxed state allows you to restore your Vigor meditation to me is a way of of enhancing one's ability to focus you know a thirde eyye meditation of concentrating your breath Etc I mean we know based on the data improves Focus prayer to me is entirely different than all of those there's some overlap that they they they look similar some of them look similar from the
你的目标呢？为什么不在开始录播客之前花点时间，想清楚你到底想达成什么，并且把它牢牢记在心里呢？是啊，而且感觉真的不一样。我得说，我有一个小清单，我有时候会讲：比如有意识的呼吸，也就是呼吸练习，可以让你改变自己的状态；催眠是一种工具，能帮你解决某个特定问题，因为它涉及神经可塑性的某些方面；还有非睡眠深度休息（NSDR），这个是从一种叫瑜伽休息术（yoga nidra）的练习发展出来的，你进入一种清醒但深度放松的状态，可以恢复精力；冥想对我来说是一种提升专注能力的方式，比如第三眼冥想、专注于呼吸等等，我们从数据上知道它能改善专注力。而祷告对我来说跟上面这些完全不同，虽然有些重叠，它们从外表看起来有点像，有些看起来很像。祷告对我而言，是允许某种
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outside prayer is the the for me is the allowing of something from TR truly outside me to come through me and bring out the best it in me and that's why I pray for four things I pray for Ability I pray for other people and I also have learned that a powerful aspect of prayer is just listening because just stopping and listening and trying to um invite in or allow in messages that um if I didn't steal myself that I wouldn't here and sometimes I'll go to sleep and then the next morning something will will come to mind it's not always immediate well I don't think there's any real difference between that and Revelation so imagine that um what speaks to you in intuition is the voice of your aim now this this would be this would be true if your thoughts and the images that appear to you are tools so to speak to orient you towards your destination well obviously they have to be that because if your thoughts and your Visions let's say didn't Orient you towards your destination they would be useless and you'd never get anywhere
真正来自我之外的东西穿过我，把我身上最好的一面带出来，所以我会为四件事祷告：我为能力祷告，我为别人祷告，而且我还学到，祷告一个很有力量的方面就是单纯地聆听，因为停下来聆听，试着邀请或者允许那些信息进来——如果我不让自己静下来，我是听不到的。有时候我睡下去，第二天早上某个念头就浮现出来了，不总是立刻就来。嗯，我不认为那跟启示有什么本质区别。你可以这样想：在直觉中对你说话的，就是你目标的声音。这成立的前提是，你的思想和浮现在你脑中的意象，可以说是用来把你导向你的目的地的工具。显然它们必须是这样，因为如果你的思想、你的所谓异象没有把你导向你的目的地，那它们就毫无用处，你哪儿也去不了。好，那么现在你确立了你的目标，而
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okay so now you specify your aim and it is the voice of that aim that will make itself manifest to you that is what a revelation is and one of these days when we have a podcast I'd like to sit down and talk to you about the relationship the formal relationship between thought and prayer because I think thought is secularized prayer I'm I I we looked at it histo because like when did we start to think that's not so obvious you know I mean we started to think in words after we developed the ability to use language what's that 1 15,000 years maybe it's longer than that no one really knows but thought has its historical Origins the probability that it emerged from something like prayer as far as I can tell is 100% but I'd like to at some point it's complicated but I'd like to have a discussion with you about that so imagine that to have an in to have an informative intuition means that you posit a question like and that's a form of humility it's like there's something I need to know that I don't know that I
向你显现出来的，正是那个目标的声音——这就是所谓的启示。哪天我们再录一期播客，我想坐下来跟你聊聊思考和祷告之间的关系，那种形式上的关系，因为我认为思考就是世俗化的祷告。我们从历史角度看过这个问题，因为你想，我们是什么时候开始思考的？这其实并不那么显而易见。我是说，我们是在具备了使用语言的能力之后，才开始用词语思考的，那是多久？一万五千年？也许更久，没人真正知道。但思考是有其历史起源的，它从类似祷告的东西中演化出来的概率，在我看来是百分之百。不过我想找个时候——这很复杂，但我想跟你好好讨论一下这个。所以你想想，要获得一个有信息量的直觉，意味着你得提出一个问题，而提问本身就是一种谦卑：就是说有些东西我需要知道、我还不知道、我有可能知道、我也想知道。
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could know that I'd like to know it's like so you set the stage well once you set the stage the probability that a creative idea will enter the theater of your imagination is much enhanced that's the first stage of Revelation then you have to assess that that's discriminating the spirits you might say you're separating the wheat from the chaff that's critical thinking but all of that as far as I can tell is something approximating secularized prayer set your aim then observe the manifestation of that aim that it's not it's not even magical it's how your perception works now there's a magic to it because I suppose the magic is that you can think up something you never thought up before how the hell do you do that it's more like you experience it right you set your aim you have a question so you're on your knees hoping for an answer the light bulb goes on well if that's not Revelation then what the hell is it it's the same thing having spent a good portion of my career digging around in brains
就这样，你搭好了舞台。而一旦你搭好舞台，一个有创造性的想法走进你想象力剧场的概率就大大提高了——这是启示的第一阶段。然后你得去评估它，也就是所谓的「分辨诸灵」，你在把麦子和糠秕分开，这就是批判性思考。但所有这一切，在我看来，都近似于世俗化的祷告：确立你的目标，然后观察那个目标的显现。这甚至都不算神奇，这就是你的知觉运作的方式。当然其中确实有神奇之处，我想那个神奇之处在于你能想出一个你从来没想到过的东西——你他妈到底是怎么做到的？更像是你「经历」到它，对吧，你确立目标，你有一个问题，于是你跪下来期待一个答案，然后灯泡亮了。如果那都不算启示，那他妈的什么才算？这是一回事。我职业生涯有很大一部分时间是在研究大脑，
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recording from neurons slicing up brains staining brains and from my understanding of what of neuros science and I think by now in 2020 almost 2025 we have a fairly good understanding of what different brain areas do how different circuits interact um I don't see how anyone who's really interested in how humans work can um not believe in God and I'm not being disparaging of people that don't I know people that are atheists I have some in my family um and I just don't think that the human brain and mind is capable of understanding and managing itself as well as it possibly could in the absence of a concept of God in prayer and I think there's a lot of uh historical evidence to support that statement meaning that this notion of God has been around a very long time this is not a coincidence I mean humans have discarded many of the things that you know other people perhaps came up with this has been a a stable feature of Being Human for a very long time of societies for a very long time and I've
记录神经元、切片、染色，基于我对神经科学的理解，而且我认为到了2020年，快2025年了，我们对不同脑区做什么、不同环路怎么相互作用已经有了相当好的理解。我实在想不通，一个真正对人是怎么运作的感兴趣的人，怎么可能不信神。我不是在贬低不信的人，我认识一些无神论者，我家里也有。我只是不认为人类的大脑和心智，在缺少神与祷告这个概念的情况下，能够像它本可以做到的那样去理解和管理自身。而且我认为有大量的历史证据支持这个说法，也就是说，神这个观念已经存在非常久了，这不是巧合。人类抛弃过很多别人想出来的东西，但这个东西一直是人之为人的一个稳定特征，存在了非常久，也是社会的一个稳定特征，存在了非常久。我一直
3:01:52
been wanting to ask you um throughout today's conversation to what extent do you think the different religions and the way that they represent God differently or in the case of Christianity God and Jesus Christ to what extent do you think that the stories and the lessons and the teachings overlap at the level that we're talking about today which is really about a psychological and neuroscientific level seems to me that they all Converge on the same themes but I'm not you know I'm somewhat of a newbie to all to to formal prayer and and to reading the Bible and so on so I like to say you know I have I haven't gotten my jersey yet because I don't deserve it but I'm I'm putting in I'm showing up to practice you know this kind of thing so I'm just curious to what extent you see consistent themes across religions and maybe even to atheism too like atheism it's been argued as its own form of religion perhaps right and for anyone listening I mean I want to make clear like the there's I don't have any push back
想在今天的对话里问你：你觉得不同的宗教，以及它们对神的不同表述——或者就基督教而言，是神与耶稣基督——你觉得在多大程度上这些故事、教训和教义，在我们今天所谈的这个层面上是重叠的，也就是心理学和神经科学的层面？在我看来它们都汇聚到了同样的主题上，但我——你知道的，我在这一切上还算是个新手，对正式的祷告、对读《圣经》等等都还是新手。所以我常说，我还没拿到我的球衣，因为我还不配，但我在投入，我在按时来训练，就是这种感觉。所以我很好奇，你在多大程度上看到跨宗教的一致主题，甚至包括无神论——有人论证说无神论本身也是一种宗教形式，对吧。对所有听众我想说清楚，我对
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on atheism it's just that for me adopting uh really coming to terms with a a real belief in God and adopting a prayer practice every single night and also during the day many times and always before a podcast has been just tremendously beneficial to my life so that's why I'm going to continue to do it um why I wouldn't I but that's the question to what extent do different the way that different religions represent God you think across religions Converge on common themes well I think they converge substantively I mean I think the best I talked to Camille pelia about this a few years ago maybe she's she's one of the world's foremost literary theorists and she said something very interesting to me that was quite surprising she said that had the academy turned to Eric nyman who is yung's greatest student by the way instead of Fuko the whole history of of the university and the intellectual Enterprise over the last five decades would have been entirely different what happened with Fuko well Fuko is the most
无神论没有任何反对意见，只是对我而言，真正接受并确立对神的信仰，养成每晚祷告的习惯，白天也祷告很多次，每次录播客前也祷告，这对我的人生带来了巨大的好处，所以我会继续这样做，我为什么不呢。但问题还是：不同宗教表述神的方式，你觉得在多大程度上汇聚到了共同的主题上？嗯，我认为它们在实质上是汇聚的。我想最好的——几年前我跟卡米尔·帕格利亚聊过这个，她是世界上最顶尖的文学理论家之一。她跟我说了一件很有意思、也相当出人意料的话。她说，如果当年学术界转向的是埃里希·诺伊曼——顺便说一下，他是荣格最杰出的学生——而不是福柯，那么过去五十年整个大学和知识事业的历史都会完全不同。福柯出了什么问题？福柯是有史以来
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cited cited scholar who ever lived and Fuko believes that the story that we act out is one of power and that's wrong it and it's not just wrong it's like perversely and dangerously wrong I think it's technically wrong wrong as well as being ethically wrong partly because power does not provide a stable basis for psychological integration or social Unity it's just it's not it power might be more effective adaptively than capitulation and dependence but it's not an optimized solution not by any stretch of the imagination and I think the data demonstrating that I think it's and I outlin that in in in this book we who wrestle with God Eric neyman Carl Yung Mach eliat a host of others outlined the patterns of religious thinking and it took the most of the 20th century to do that and they found recurring themes that are profound so what one example the ancient Egyptians worshiped a god Horus everyone knows the god Horus because the his emblem is the ie the Open Eye well what does that mean it means in part that the
被引用最多的学者，而福柯认为我们所演绎的那个故事是关于权力的，这是错的，而且不只是错，是那种荒谬而危险的错。我认为它在技术层面上就是错的，同时在伦理层面上也是错的，部分原因在于，权力无法为心理整合或社会统一提供一个稳定的基础，就是不行。权力在适应性上也许比屈服和依附更有效，但它绝不是一个最优解，怎么想都不是。而且我认为有数据能证明这一点。我在这本书《与神角力的我们》里阐述了这个。埃里希·诺伊曼、卡尔·荣格、米尔恰·伊利亚德等一大批人，勾勒出了宗教思维的模式，这花了二十世纪的大部分时间才完成，他们发现了一些非常深刻的反复出现的主题。举个例子，古埃及人崇拜荷鲁斯这位神。大家都知道荷鲁斯，因为他的标志就是那只眼睛，那只睁开的眼睛。那这意味着什么？某种程度上它意味着古埃及人崇拜的是「注意力」，他们认为注意力之神是
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ancient Egyptians worshiped attention and they felt that the god of attention was the antidote to the pathological State and they were right about that I mean they had a god of the pathological state that was Seth the god Seth the name Seth became Satan through the Coptic through the Coptic Christian so they believed that the degenerate state had a spirit and the antidote to the spirit of the degenerate state was the allseeing the allseeing upward striving eye and that's right it's like they nailed that sounds like what you were saying before where you set your sights where you set high and to the to the heavens and then to the most proximal thing that's going to deliver you to the next rung well and there's a difference between attention and thinking like attention is a quest if you're paying attention you're looking you're seeking you're knocking you're asking right and the Eternal promise is that if you ask you'll be answered and if you seek you'll find and it's the the ey is the gateway to that and it's the antidote to
病态状态的解药。他们在这一点上是对的。我是说，他们有一个代表病态状态的神，那就是赛特，赛特神这个名字后来经由科普特基督教变成了「撒旦」。所以他们相信堕落的状态有其精神，而对治这种堕落状态之精神的解药，就是那只全视的、向上求索的眼睛。没错，他们完全说中了。这听起来就像你之前说的，你把目光设定在——设得很高，朝向天上，然后再看那个能把你送上下一级台阶的、最近的东西。嗯，而且「注意」和「思考」是有区别的。注意是一种求索：如果你在注意，你就是在看、在寻，在叩门、在求，对吧。而永恒的应许是：你求，就必得着；你寻，就必寻见。眼睛就是通往那里的门户，也是堕落状态的解药，因为
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the degenerate State because the degenerate State the totalitarian state insists and tyrannizes and the open eye seeks well the Egyptians figured this out and they the Egyptian theology had a walloping impact on Jewish theology I mean the Jews came out of Egypt like there are concept that's that's a conceptu there are consequences of that conceptually as well as historically the the her the pattern of the hero's journey that's replicated I would say that's the central pattern of story per se and that makes itself manifest in perhaps all cultures that have managed any unity and any progress whatsoever is there a hierarchy of religious truth yes in just as there's a hierarchy in literary depth we understand that a a dimore romance is not as profound as a dovi novel we know there's a hierarchy of depth and you can arrange religious apprehension in terms of a hierarchy of quality and I think the Union school did that brilliantly brilliantly and biologists should know it in Far More depth the best
堕落的状态、极权的状态是在坚持己见、在施行暴政，而睁开的眼睛是在寻求。埃及人把这个想明白了，而埃及神学对犹太神学产生了巨大的冲击。我是说，犹太人是从埃及出来的，这在概念上和历史上都是有后果的。还有英雄之旅的模式，那是不断重现的，我会说那就是故事本身的核心模式，而它几乎在所有实现了某种统一和某种进步的文化中都显现出来。宗教真理有没有一个等级秩序？有，就像文学深度上也有等级秩序一样。我们都明白，一本廉价的言情小说不如一部陀思妥耶夫斯基的小说深刻。我们知道深度是有层级的，你也可以按质量高低把宗教领悟排列出层级。我认为荣格学派在这件事上做得极其出色，而生物学家本该更深入地了解它。我所认识的研究情绪和
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neuroscientists of emotion and motivation that I knew and that include Yak PP they knew the the the work of ilad for example would you which of those readings would you recommend for somebody who's interested in Psychology and Neuroscience explained at that level I would start with the sacred and the profane by by ilad and also um Eric neyman's book uh the Origins and history of Consciousness that's a harder one because it's unless you know the lingo of that school it's hard to it's hard to understand what he's aiming at if you understand that he's aiming at he's he's elaborating on the symbolism of The Adventurous Spirit that's a good way of thinking about it it's a technical analysis of the structure of heroic expansion of personality but it it's an easier way in is through ilot sacred and the profane short book you could you would read it now knowing that the gods that ilad describe as Waring in the Pagan world are in part manifestations of the personality of motivational drive and the mapping of
动机的最优秀的神经科学家，包括雅克·潘克塞普，他们都知道伊利亚德的工作。比如说，你会推荐哪几本书？对于一个对心理学和神经科学感兴趣、想在这个层面上理解这些的人，我会先从伊利亚德的《神圣与世俗》开始，另外还有埃里希·诺伊曼的《意识的起源与历史》，那本更难一些，因为除非你懂那个学派的行话，否则很难理解他到底想说什么。但如果你知道他的目标是什么——他是在阐述「冒险精神」的象征体系，这样想会比较好把握——那本书是对人格的英雄式扩展结构所做的技术性分析。不过更容易入门的还是伊利亚德的《神圣与世俗》，一本小书。你现在可以带着这样的认识去读它：伊利亚德所描述的、在异教世界中彼此交战的诸神，在一定程度上是人格中动机驱力的显现，而这场战争跨越时代的映射，就是
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that war across times that's the war of the Gods in heaven which is a very common mythological Trope there's a war that integrates towards a monotheism and ilot to trct that in multiple cultures and that's very it's very much worth knowing because it explains it explains the symbolism of the emergence of the integrated literate human psyche across tens of thousands of years that's captured in story so imagine this here's a way of thinking about it so tribe A Tribe B tribe C now they all have their highest deity or their panoply of deities now they unite okay so as they unite they fight they compete and they cooperate they kill each other they cooperate and trade at the same time that's happening there's a war in the space of ideas between their respective deities and you could think about the human beings acting out that war just as you could think about the war the abstraction reflecting the conflict on Earth well there's a pattern to that conflict that pattern is quite stable across cultures it tilts towards a
「天上诸神之战」——这是一个非常常见的神话母题。有一场战争，它朝着一神论整合，而伊利亚德在多个文化中追溯了这一点，这非常——非常值得了解，因为它解释了在数万年间，整合的、有文字能力的人类心灵是如何浮现出来的，其象征体系被记录在故事里。所以你可以这样想：A部落、B部落、C部落，它们各自都有自己的最高神，或者一整套神系。现在它们要统一了。好，在统一的过程中它们打仗、竞争，也合作，它们互相杀戮，同时也合作和贸易。与此同时，在观念的空间里，它们各自的神祇之间也在打仗。你可以把人类看作是在把那场战争演出来，也可以反过来把那场抽象层面的战争看作是对地上冲突的映照。而那场冲突是有模式的，那个模式在跨文化中相当稳定：只要多元的文化在统一，它就朝着一神论的统一倾斜。显然嘛，它们要靠什么
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monotheistic unity in so far as the multiplicity of cultures unifies well obviously like what are they going to unify with in the absence of conceptual Unity I don't think so and why wouldn't it be that the movement towards that conceptual Unity which is the establishment of a larger scale civilization would involve the battle between ideas of the Divine and their integration into something resembling a Unity like clearly well that's part of the Proclamation let's say of the analytic psychologists that were all part of Carl school and the academy just ignored that entirely except for Camille Pia who understands this quite profoundly and went in the direction of Fuko these are these lineages that we were talking about before it's it's hard for people to appreciate just how powerful these academic lineages are and scientific lineages are because they they set trajectories I've been yeah and they Define what's forbidden like all my all the people that advised me as a graduate student even those who had my
来统一，如果没有概念上的统一的话？我不觉得可能。那么，为什么走向这种概念统一的过程——也就是建立更大规模文明的过程——不会包含关于神性的各种观念之间的战斗呢？通向某种类似“统一体”的整合方式。当然，这某种程度上正是那批分析心理学家所宣告的，他们都属于荣格那一派，而学界完全无视了这一点，除了卡米尔·帕格利亚，她对此理解得相当深刻，但后来走向了福柯。这就是我们刚才说的那些脉络，人们很难体会到这些学术脉络和科学脉络有多强大，因为它们设定了轨迹。是的，而且它们定义了什么是禁忌，比如我读研究生时所有指导过我的人，哪怕是那些真心为我着想的人，都叫我千万别谈我对荣格
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best interest firmly in mind told me to never talk about my interest in Union psychology really yeah sorry I'm laughing cuz it's so Preposterous yeah well I and and like it it it's not surprising I mean I always did when I went for job interviews and that definitely was part of what scuttled at me at some of the places I interviewed now fortunately they hired me at Harvard and so I was what I was discussing was verboten in many places but not there so you know that worked out quite nicely for I was going to say clearly it worked out I've been I've been meaning to ask you I've been reading a a really interesting book um recently that's uh Bas basically grounded in adarian Psychology yeah I'm I wasn't familiar with adarian psychology yeah Adler's very practical the book talks about Adler as a as a Counterpoint to Freud and Yung what's the book um the book is called the courage to be disliked and I highly recommend it to everybody it was actually written by Japanese author I think there are two Japanese authors it
心理学的兴趣。真的吗？对。抱歉我在笑，因为这太荒唐了。是啊，而且，这其实也不奇怪，我是说我一直都在谈，我去面试工作的时候也谈，那确实是我在有些面试的地方被刷掉的部分原因不过幸运的是哈佛录用了我，所以我讨论的那些东西在很多地方是禁忌，但在那里不是，所以你知道，结果还挺不错的。我正想说，显然结果很好。我一直想问你一件事，我最近在读一本非常有意思的书，基本上是建立在阿德勒心理学基础上的。是啊，我以前不太了解阿德勒心理学。阿德勒非常务实。这本书把阿德勒讲成是弗洛伊德和荣格的一个对照面。是哪本书？嗯，书名叫《被讨厌的勇气》，我强烈推荐给所有人。它其实是日本作者写的，我记得是两位日本作者。这本书在美国没那么火，但它有很大的读者群
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didn't get quite so popular in this country but it it had a big following um in Japan and I think in other places in uh in Asia and um the book is is set up as a conversation between essentially a philosopher at of adarian psychology and a student um who's challenging him so it's a conversation that raises all the all the challenges that one that would come to one's mind if you were to be presented with this idea of Life tasks and that we're supposed to discard with our thoughts about prior trauma and just figure out what are our tasks now right right and I I like the practicality of it Adler's very practical yeah I like that was just curious what your thoughts were about that the it seems to fit quite well with your your Notions and what you've talked about in multiple books including the most recent one um the one that's out now about getting really serious about what your tasks are at this moment in time and embracing those tasks as a way to progress forward as opposed to um floundering in Notions
在日本，我想在亚洲其他地方也是。这本书的结构是一场对话，基本上是一位阿德勒心理学的哲学家和一个学生之间的对话，学生不断质疑他，所以这场对话把所有你在被抛出“人生课题”这个概念时，脑子里会冒出来的质疑，全都提出来了还有我们应该抛开对过去创伤的种种想法，直接去弄清楚我们现在的课题是什么，对吧对，我很喜欢它的务实。阿德勒非常务实。对，我很喜欢，我只是好奇你对这个怎么看。它似乎和你的那些观念、和你在多本书里讲过的东西非常契合，包括最近的那本就是现在正在卖的那本，讲的是要真正认真对待你此时此刻的课题，并去拥抱那些课题，以此向前推进，而不是在关于过去的种种想法里挣扎不前。我觉得它
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about the the past and I think it it might it might hit some people Square upside the head when when there's I think one of the chapters opens with the words there's no such thing as trauma which is clearly not true but the whole idea is to to prompt a different way of thinking and to let people start to drill into like okay what do I need to do now regardless of what my parents did or didn't do right regardless of my damaged self and I I must say I really like the book well I would say I should say I I really like I should say I really like the concept embracing task while agonizing over the meaning of life and what one is to do yes well Adler was the most practical of the small crowd that aggregated around Freud and so yung's take was that Freud focused on sex and Adler focused on Power and Yung focused on what transcended both and I think that's right now Adler is a good repost to Freud in exactly the way you described if you like that book and you're interested in all three of them let's say there's a great book called
可能会让有些人当头一棒，因为我记得其中有一章的开头就是这么一句话：根本不存在所谓的创伤。这显然不是真的，但整个用意是要引发一种不同的思考方式，让人们开始往下深挖：好，那我现在需要做什么？不管我父母做了什么或没做什么，对吧，也不管我这个受损的自我。我得说我真的很喜欢这本书。嗯，我应该说，我真的很喜欢……我应该说，我很喜欢这个理念：在为人生的意义、为自己该做什么而痛苦纠结的同时去拥抱课题。是的。嗯，阿德勒是聚集在弗洛伊德周围那一小群人里最务实的一个，所以荣格的看法是：弗洛伊德聚焦于性，阿德勒聚焦于权力，而荣格聚焦于超越这两者的东西。我觉得这是对的。阿德勒确实是对弗洛伊德一个很好的回击，正是你描述的那种方式。如果你喜欢那本书的话你对这三个人都感兴趣的话，有一本很棒的书叫《发现无意识》（The Discovery of the Unconscious），作者是
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discovery of the unconscious which was written by a man named hre elenberger who was the foremost exponent of existential psychology in the 1950s brilliant brilliant scholar and it is the best analysis of Freud Jung and Adler that's ever been written by a lot and it's it's a truly great book he also traces the idea of the unconscious back 350 years before Freud so it's a masterful study but I liked Adler and he was much less charismatic than Freud and Yung and so his star didn't shine as brightly but he's very practically oriented and much of his thinking would what would you say fits quite nicely with a bottom with the same kind of bottom up approach that a more behaviorally oriented psychotherapist would employ so look it's it's it's there are some people if you're if you're engaging in a therapeutic process with someone there are people who are best engaged with at the level of concept those are people are high in trait openness not everyone's like that in fact most people aren't like that yungi
一个叫亨利·艾伦伯格（Henri Ellenberger）的人，他是1950年代存在主义心理学最主要的代表人物，一位非常非常出色的学者，而这本书是迄今为止对弗洛伊德、荣格和阿德勒最好的分析，好出一大截，它真的是一本了不起的书。他还把无意识这个概念追溯到弗洛伊德之前350年，所以这是一部功力深厚的研究。不过我很喜欢阿德勒，他远不如弗洛伊德和荣格那么有魅力，所以他的名声没那么响亮，但他非常注重实践，他的很多思考，怎么说呢，跟自下而上的那种路径配合得相当好，就是偏行为取向的心理治疗师会采用的那种自下而上的方法。所以你看，有些人——如果你在跟某个人进行治疗过程，有些人最适合在概念层面上去沟通，那些人在开放性这个特质上得分很高，但不是所有人都这样，事实上大多数人都不是这样。荣格
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and psychology works really well on highly creative people and almost all yung's clients were creative because they wouldn't have come to him otherwise and there's also people for whom sexual dysfunction and Trauma are the primary what would you say say the the primary preoccupation of their life and the past and Freud serves them well Adler is very practical and if you're looking for a psychologist to help you figure out how you could advance from where you are now he's he's he's got plenty of things to say that are good he also wasn't as good a literary stylist as young Yung or Freud so that also put him off to the side to some degree but anyways a deep deeper investigations can certainly be found in discovery of the unconscious and if for anybody listening and watching who's interested in psychological ideas broadly and would like familiarity with the psychoanalytic tradition Freud Jung and Adler let's say primary there is not a better book than discovery of the unconscious it's really a work of Genius
心理学在极具创造力的人身上效果非常好，而荣格的来访者几乎全都是创造型的人，因为不然他们根本不会去找他。还有一些人，性功能障碍和创伤是他们生活中最主要的，怎么说呢，最主要的关注点，还有过去的经历，对这些人弗洛伊德很管用。阿德勒则非常务实，如果你想找一位心理学家帮你弄清楚怎么从现在的处境往前走，他有很多很好的东西可以讲。另外他的文笔也不如荣格或弗洛伊德，所以这在某种程度上也让他被边缘化了。不管怎样，更深入的探讨肯定能在《发现无意识》里找到。对于所有在听、在看的人，如果你对心理学思想有广泛的兴趣，想要熟悉精神分析传统——主要就是弗洛伊德、荣格和阿德勒——没有比《发现无意识》更好的书了，它真的是一部天才之作。你知道这个领域的文献里缺了什么吗——顺便说一句，谢谢你推荐这些——
3:16:36
you know what's missing from the literature thank you for those by the way is a really excellent up-to-date book on neuroscience and the mind and psychology perhaps we write one together yeah yeah well that's that's me it's just not out there I mean there textbooks on Neuroscience there's some there's a lot of discussion as you know about Free Will lack of Free Will depending on which author you're paying attention to but um there isn't really a satisfactory book about the brain the mind and psychology this just doesn't exist yeah the closest one I ever encountered probably is affective Neuroscience panp book he's uh I'm So I must say um you've mentioned pup a few times and and Yak Pang uh as some of you may know but perhaps most of you don't is was such a gift to science and the fact that I think the first time I heard you lecture in one of your YouTube lectures you mentioned Yak Pang up and I thought okay like this guy knows knows the good stuff because he was the first one to talk about juvenile
缺的是一本真正出色的、跟得上时代的关于神经科学、心智和心理学的书。也许我们可以一起写一本。是啊是啊，这正是我想说的，市面上就是没有。我是说，神经科学的教科书有，关于自由意志或者说没有自由意志的讨论也有很多，取决于你在关注哪个作者，但是呃，确实没有一本令人满意的、讲大脑、心智和心理学的书，就是不存在。是啊，我遇到过的最接近的大概是《情感神经科学》，潘克塞普（Panksepp）的书。他呃……我得说，呃，你已经提到过潘克塞普好几次了，雅克·潘克塞普（Jaak Panksepp），你们有些人可能知道，但也许大多数人不知道，他对科学来说真是一份厚礼。我想我第一次听你讲课，是在你的一个YouTube讲座里，你提到了雅克·潘克塞普，我当时就想，好，这家伙懂行，因为他是第一个谈到幼年期游戏是探索神经回路和社会动态的一种方式的人，而这跟——
3:17:32
play as a way of exploring circuitry and social dynamics such such and that fit by the way that fit perfectly with PJ's observations of childhood socialization it's like I I came across panks up and I thought oh that's so cool now we have the psychophysiological basis for pan developmental theory was perfect yeah so that was that was lovely concordance YP would have been uh far more recognized had he bit he was at Bowling Green University I think and so smaller University perhaps I don't know I didn't ever hear a lecture maybe not as charismatic as some of the other luminaries of of neuroscience at that time but yeah I don't know how he was as a lecturer he's a great writer and man he had an uniring eye for the right problems in in terms of psychological investigation and very brave in that regard I mean he studied laughter in rats and you think oh of all the absurd things to focus on it's like no you just don't understand where the goal is or play among rats who cares that rats play well like that would be the sort of
顺便说，这跟皮亚杰对童年社会化的观察完全吻合。我当时读到潘克塞普，就想，噢这太酷了，现在我们有了皮亚杰发展理论的心理生理学基础，太完美了。是啊，所以那真是一种美妙的契合。潘克塞普本该获得更多的认可，可惜他当时在保龄格林大学，我想是，学校规模比较小吧，我也不清楚，我从来没听过他讲课，也许他不像当时神经科学界其他一些名人那么有魅力。不过我确实不知道他讲课水平如何，但他文笔很好，而且他在心理学研究方面有一种识别真问题的独到眼光，而且在这方面非常勇敢，我的意思是，他研究了大鼠的笑声，你会想，天哪，这么多荒唐的事情里怎么偏偏研究这个，其实不是这样，你只是不明白目标在哪里，或者大鼠之间的玩耍，谁在乎大鼠玩得好不好，这种研究提案大概会被
12玩耍、播客与做自愿的傻瓜
3:18:34
research proposal that would be pillared by sensible Republicans looking to trim government waste it's like no that was the heart of the matter right rats organized their social hierarchy through play not through Force right that's a big Discovery like that's I think he should have won a Nobel Prize you too yeah he he should have won a nail for a variety of his discoveries but that one in particular like rats have an implicit morality that's a that's a major league disc and it's based on play WoW stunning and we see the same thing in kids obviously and then well we see the same thing in chimpanzees like it's pretty strange to understand that dominance hierarchies if they're functional are often organized in consequence of play not force like so much for uh Fuko when you look on out on the landscape of social media um do you see elements of that as well that there's sort of a playfulness among uh people that's establishing a hierarchy it seems like elon's having a good time with his rockets and his X and Tesla and I think
那些想削减政府浪费开支的理性共和党人拿来当靶子批判，但其实不是这样，那才是问题的核心，大鼠是通过玩耍而不是通过武力来组织它们的社会等级的，这是个重大发现，我认为他应该拿诺贝尔奖，你也这么想吧，是的，他凭好几项发现都该拿奖，但尤其是这一项，大鼠有一种内隐的道德，这是重量级的发现，而且它建立在玩耍之上，哇，太惊人了我们在孩子身上显然也看到同样的现象，而且在黑猩猩身上也看到同样的现象，这挺奇怪的，要理解支配等级如果是健康运作的，往往是玩耍的结果，而不是武力的结果，福柯的理论就这样不攻自破了。当你放眼社交媒体的整个图景时，你有没有看到这方面的元素，就是人们之间有某种玩闹的成分在建立等级，感觉埃隆玩他的火箭、X 和特斯拉玩得挺开心的，我觉得我认为确实存在，我认为暴政的对立面就是玩耍，我花了
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I think that there is I think that the antithesis of of tyranny is play it took me a long time to realize that like I've been studying evil intensely since I was about 13 and evil is easier to Define than good it's it's it's hard to find a category that integrates all that's good that's that you can point to Simply but it has the fact that play is the antithesis of tyranny seems to be a pretty good summation like pep showed for example that play wouldn't emerge among animals if they were possessed by any other motivational state things have to be set up very carefully before play will emerge your house is optimally structured if your children can play your marriage is optimally structured if you're playing house with your wife and I think that that reality of the what would you say the optimally superordinate nature of play that makes itself manifest when you're watching someone who's a master at their task and musk is playing and hopefully that will you know and Trump plays too it's one of the things that
很长时间才意识到这一点，我从大概 13 岁起就一直在深入研究恶，恶比善更容易定义，很难找到一个能把所有善的东西整合起来、又能简单指出来的范畴，但玩耍是暴政的对立面这个事实，似乎是一个相当好的概括，比如潘克塞普就证明过，如果动物被任何其他动机状态所支配，玩耍就不会出现，事情必须安排得非常妥当，玩耍才会出现。如果你的孩子能玩耍，你的家就处在最佳结构状态；如果你和妻子在过日子时能有玩耍的成分，你的婚姻就处在最佳结构状态。我认为，玩耍那种怎么说呢，那种最优的、居于最高位的本质，会在你看着某个在自己领域已臻化境的人时显现出来，而马斯克就是在玩，但愿这会带来好的结果，特朗普也在玩，这是让我对他不那么疑虑的原因之一，他幽默得要命，虽然手法很粗野，他
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made me less uncertain about him he's deadly funny now it's rough he plays rough no doubt about it but he's ridiculously he's got a ridiculously comic touch and that's not something that's generally characteristic of you know Psychopathic dictators Hitler wasn't known for his sense of humor let's talk about sense of humor if you don't mind um because um I think it's something that's sorely lacking in a lot of the uh discourse among adults um so to speak and I think these days I think a lot about what young people are observing a few years back I I was watching this show I didn't like it um called forgive me because I think the actor was quite good um but the show was Californication with David dukovany and I realized this show is all about the adults acting like children and the children acting like adults oh yeah that's that's a typical Hollywood inversion and I thought um this is terrible um not because I'm some sort of moral Avenger or something but it just it was sort of like the question I've
玩得很粗野，这毫无疑问，但他滑稽得离谱，他有一���极其滑稽的喜剧感，而这一般不是那种精神变态的独裁者的特征，希特勒可不以幽默感著称。如果你不介意的话，我们来聊聊幽默感，因为我觉得在成年人的很多所谓的话语讨论中，这是极度缺失的东西，而且这些天我经常在想年轻人都在观察些什么。几年前我看过一部剧，我并不喜欢它，叫做，请原谅我这么说，因为我觉得那位演员演得相当好，但那部剧是《加州靡情》，大卫·杜楚尼主演的，我意识到这部剧讲的全都是大人像小孩一样行事，而小孩像大人一样行事。哦对，这是典型的好莱坞式颠倒。我当时想，这太糟糕了，倒不是因为我是什么道德卫士之类的，而只是这有点像我过去几年经常问自己的一个问题，就是房间里的成年人在哪里，
3:22:01
been asking myself a lot over the last few years is like who are the adults in the room like who's actually regulating all this stuff that's happening everyone's in disagreement people are are misbehaving in the kind of worst of ways um by you know not treating each other with respect um occasionally you'd see a discourse that would felt like meaningful and structured or um explorative in the real sense like people were there to learn I think that's been one of the successes of of your work and of Rogan's work and I like to think you know my podcast as well Lex fredman certainly and others right um sometimes people use comedy sometimes people use Neuroscience as as a as a probe but in any case but you know I've been concerned that there there isn't this kind of like enjoyment of discourse between people that disagree in a way that includes forgiveness or like ah you got like good one like you got me or you know and and um it seems like it it's degenerated into things that are so nasty and it's
到底是谁在管着正在发生的这一切，所有人都在争执，人们都在以最糟糕的方式胡来，比如不以尊重的态度对待彼此，偶尔你会看到一场讨论，感觉像是有意义、有结构，或者真正意义上的探索性——大家是来学东西的，我觉得这就是你的工作、罗根的工作成功的原因之一当然我也愿意认为我的播客也是，还有莱克斯·弗里德曼（Lex Fridman）以及其他人，对吧有时候人们用喜剧，有时候人们用神经科学作为切入点，但不管怎样，你知道，我一直担心的是，持不同意见的人之间缺少那种享受交流的感觉，那种包含宽容的交流，比如'啊，这句说得漂亮''你说到我了'之类的，而且现在似乎已经堕落成特别刻薄的东西了，人们进入这个游戏——如果还能叫游戏的话——的时候
3:23:03
sort of like people are entering the game if you could even call it that with a refusal to shift like like that's not a debate that's there's nothing playful about it like you have to be willing to have a winner and a loser and you have to be willing to be either one if you're going to engage in real in in real discourse in real play and to me um it it's like okay I can manage seeing all that or participate or not participate to the extent that I want but for young people it's got to be really discouraging it's like you either dunk on somebody or get dunked on well you know I guess the optimistic repost to that would be the fact that the people that you're pointing to like Rogan who is a comedian like many of the people who've become become extremely successful as podcasters Constantine kissen Russell Brand Dave Rubin um Crowder Steven Crowder pH vaugh that's a lot of comedians so there's a lot of play in the alternative media and a lot of young people are being informed by the alternative media so I think
是拒绝改变立场的，那不叫辩论，那里面一点游戏感都没有，你得愿意接受有赢家和输家，而且你得愿意做其中任何一个，如果你要真正参与真正的交流、真正的博弈的话。对我来说，好吧，我能承受看到这一切，或者参与、不参与都随我的意愿，但对年轻人来说，这一定非常让人泄气，好像你要么把别人踩在脚下，要么被别人踩，嗯我想，对此乐观的回应是，你提到的这些人，比如罗根他是个喜剧演员，很多做播客做得极其成功的人——康斯坦丁·基辛、罗素·布兰德、戴夫·鲁宾、克劳德，史蒂文·克劳德，还有 PH Vaugh——里面有一大批喜剧演员，所以另类媒体里有大量的玩兴，而且很多年轻人是从另类媒体获取信息的，所以我觉得这里面确实有理由乐观
3:24:08
there's genuine room for optimism there um and there's plenty of play in those podcasts now a group of us eight years ago seven years ago put out an offer to the Democratic powers that be to invite the Democrats to come and talk to us Ruben was part of that Rogan was part of that if I remember correctly I'm quite certain of it I was part of that Shapiro was part of that this was a genuine invitation which was extended many times in serious Ways by people who are very well connected among the Democratic Elite and that came to nothing they want no part of it nope they'd speak to me for example privately never publicly virtually never almost without exception all the while the alternative media was gaining more and more power all the while we were telling them this isn't optional your Legacy Media foothold is dying wake up well Rogan for example you can could imagine that he would be on board with such a thing because he's not precisely your stereotypical Republican no well no not at all right people will
而且那些播客里也有充足的玩兴。八年前，七年前，我们一群人向民主党的当权者发出过一个提议，邀请民主党人来跟我们对谈，鲁宾参与了，罗根也参与了，如果我没记错的话——我相当确定——我参与了，夏皮罗也参与了，这是一次真诚的邀请，而且由一些在民主党精英圈人脉很广的人多次以严肃的方式发出，结果什么都没有，他们完全不想沾边，不干。比如他们私下会跟我聊，但从来不公开聊，几乎从来没有，几乎无一例外与此同时另类媒体的影响力越来越大，与此同时我们一直在告诉他们，这不是可选项，你们在传统媒体里的那点立足之地正在消亡，醒醒吧。比如罗根，你可以想象他会支持这样的事，因为他并不完全是那种刻板印象里的共和党人——不，完全不是，对，人们会
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people will call him that they try and you know manosphere bro whatever that it doesn't it the reality Falls so far from when you not true at all it's not true yeah so so there is plenty of play and and I so I think we can be positive about that and and I think young people too have seen how successful that could be I mean Rogan and his codery let's say wiped out the Legacy Media well so you can see what the spirit of playful Adventure can do in a very short period of time now there's technological reasons for that too but technological reasons are not it's still a stunning phenomenon and a stunning accomplishment and a very positive one as far as I'm concerned and hopefully it will continue yeah the power pendulum has definitely swung in a different direction well that became Stark starkly obvious when Rogan interviewed Trump that was the death nail of the Legacy Media it certainly elevated podcasts and their their impact and significance across the board well I think it demonstrated the
这么叫他，他们试着，你知道，什么'男性圈兄弟'之类的，但现实跟那个差得太远了根本不是那样，不是真的，对。所以确实有充足的玩兴，所以我觉得我们可以对此保持积极，而且我觉得年轻人也看到了这条路能有多成功。我是说，罗根和他那一帮人，可以说把传统媒体打垮了，所以你能看到那种爱玩的冒险精神在很短时间内能做成什么。当然这里面也有技术上的原因，但技术原因并不能——这依然是个惊人的现象，惊人的成就，而且在我看来是非常正面的，希望它能继续下去。是啊，权力的钟摆确实摆向了另一个方向。嗯，这一点在罗根采访特朗普的时候变得格外明显，那是传统媒体的丧钟它确实全面抬升了播客的地位、影响力和重要性。我觉得它证明了
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fact that they had been elevated right it was just it was it was evidence of that was that was so conclusive that there was no longer any way of qu of of questioning it even the CNN pundits and so forth who were very resistant to that as a hypothesis changed their tune very rapidly well it was interesting because Rogan's conversation with Trump was a serious one Theo's conversation with Trump was a mixture of serious and less serious and um I mean I couldn't help but smile big when um at the inauguration the thanks went out to a number of people including Theo vau I mean if you think about this you think good for Theo so fun I'm yet to meet him I I hear he's I really like Theo is so great because Theo is like he's he's Backwoods hick to the core right seriously underclass background and it's real and he's so bloody smart and so it's such a fun combination because he's got this it's pretty easy if you're elitist to you know be be what derisive about the in his back woodsy stick but man there's a
他们地位被抬高了这个事实，对吧，这就是——这就是——这个证据太确凿了，已经没有任何办法再去质疑它了，就连那些一开始非常抗拒把这个当作一种假设的CNN评论员之类的人，也很快就改口了。嗯，这挺有意思的，因为罗根跟特朗普的那场对话是很严肃的，西奥跟特朗普的对话则是半严肃半玩闹的，嗯，我是说，我忍不住会心一笑，就是在就职典礼上，感谢名单里提到了好几个人，其中就有西奥·冯。我是说你想想看，你会觉得西奥真行啊，太有意思了。我还没见过他本人，我听说他——我真的很喜欢西奥，他太棒了，因为西奥这人，他骨子里就是个乡下土包子，真的是很底层的出身，而且这是真的，可他又聪明得要命，所以这个组合特别好玩，因为他身上有那种——如果你是个精英主义者，你很容易去嘲笑他那套乡下把式，但是哥们儿，
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sec there's a First Rate mind lurking behind that that it's not a Persona because it's actually him too you know I can relate to that to a large degree because you know I came from a very small town way the hell out in the middle of nowhere and so I have plenty in common with Theo but it's it's very funny to watch it's very funny to see him do this successfully it's ridiculously and preposterously comical that he got to sit down with Trump I mean I just thought that was that's so funny and that it was successful and playful you know that's great and there's plenty of play in the Republican Renaissance at the moment whatever that is I mean it's Republican to call it that is like that's whatever the hell's happening it's not conceptualized in terms of our normal political dichotomy right I mean we're in Uncharted water now hopefully this is why I hope the Democrats get their act together cuz every Administration needs an opposition and if the Democrats continue with this woke idiocy they're not going to be able
那背后藏着一个一流的头脑，而且那不是人设，因为那也确实就是他本人。你知道吗，我在很大程度上能感同身受，因为我也是从一个特别小的镇子出来的，鸟不拉屎的地方，所以我跟西奥有很多共同点。但看他这样特别有意思，看他这么成功地做到这些特别有意思，而且简直滑稽得离谱，他居然能坐下来跟特朗普对谈。我是说我就觉得那实在是太好笑了，而且还很成功、很有玩兴，你知道吗，那挺好的。眼下这场共和党的文艺复兴里有大量的玩兴，不管那到底是什么。我是说，管它叫共和党，这就像是——不管现在发生的到底是什么，它没法用我们通常的政治二分法来理解，对吧。我是说我们现在进入了未知水域，但愿——这就是为什么我希望民主党能振作起来，因为每一届政府都需要一个反对派，而如果民主党继续搞这套觉醒的蠢事，他们就没法对特朗普政府里一定会出现的过度行为起到应有的纠偏作用，
3:28:56
to serve as the proper corrective to the excesses that will definitely emerge in the Trump Administration especially if they face no credible opposition always happens sorry I didn't mean to didn't mean to interrupt before we started we were touching on this a little bit and you said something which was that you're hoping for a really formidable strong Democratic party to counter the Republican party and you are and you're saying it again now you're concerned that if there isn't one that power corrupts might run a muck oh yes well of course it will it always does you know and that the Republicans themselves who might wish well this remarkable group of people that's aggregated around Trumpets like they should hope for themselves that they have an effective opposition because someone's got to be telling you where you're stupid and if the Democrats so this is another public invitation to the Democrats which is like must be the 50th one that I've issued if you have something to say you know I'd be happy
尤其是在他们面对不了任何像样的反对派的情况下，这种事总会发生。抱歉，我不是有意——不是有意打断。我们开始之前就稍微聊到过这一点，你当时说了一句话，就是你希望有一个真正强大有力的民主党来制衡共和党，你现在又说了一遍，你担心如果没有这样一个反对派，权力就会腐化、失控。哦对，当然会，一向如此，你知道的。而且共和党人自己，他们可能也会希望——聚集在特朗普周围的这群了不起的人，他们自己就该希望有一个有效的反对派，因为总得有人告诉你你哪里犯蠢了。所以，如果民主党——这又是一次公开邀请民主党，这大概是我发出的第五十次邀请了——如果你们有什么想说的，你们知道，我很乐意
3:29:59
to talk and so would many people who've expressed similar sentiment to me in the alternative media world and that offer has been on the table for for years so I hope that I'm afraid that all the people with any real courage or virtually all them be chased out of the democratic party they're all afraid of being cancelled which is why they wouldn't appear on my podcast to begin with it's like why does Peterson always interview conservatives it's like well how come how about because they'll talk to me you know there's a simple explanation and definitely a true one so maybe that can shift and there's got to be somebody in the Democrats who's got enough courage to forge a new Direction and if they want to continue with this same old pattern of woke idiocy well go right ahead it's not going to work the Tide's already turned in that regard I think that judging from some of the um article titles that I've um seen at uh New York Times and other venues it seems like there might be some consideration
聊聊，另类媒体圈里许多向我表达过类似看法的人也一样乐意，这个邀请已经摆在桌上好多年了。所以我希望——恐怕所有还有点真正勇气的人，或者说几乎所有这样的人，都已经被赶出民主党了。他们都害怕被取消，这也是他们一开始就不肯上我播客的原因。就像有人问，为什么彼得森老是采访保守派？那要不然这么说吧，因为只有他们愿意跟我聊啊。你知道，这有个很简单的解释，而且绝对是真的。所以也许情况能有所改变，民主党里总得有人有足够的勇气开辟一个新方向，如果他们想继续沿用这种老一套的觉醒派蠢事，那就请便吧，这行不通，这方面的风向已经变了。我觉得，从我在《纽约时报》和其他媒体上看到的一些文章标题来看，似乎他们对此是有一些反思的，他们在讨论民主党的
3:31:04
about this they're talking about a restructuring of the democratic party there who's going to lead who's going to be their uh Joe Rogan which is by the way a silly question that's just the silliest question we say in science he's n of one don't don't even try like it's the whole point is to create why would you would can't yeah right Joe didn't emerge by accident Joe is very very very smart very and if you think and like it's what it's like Joe built this it's like not the way that a political party would build it first of all he didn't build it not not not that way not through a prior planning so that the Democrats could have a voice it's just him being him yes exactly yeah and someone someone who is a self-declared Democrat will do that as well but not by trying to be him that's just not going to happen no they'll be they'll they'll do that by trying to figure out what the opposition to this new peculiar band of Republicans should be and what sort of vision could be put forward that would be attractive you
重组，谁来领导，谁会成为他们的那个乔·罗根——顺便说一句，这是个很傻的问题，是最傻的问题。我们搞科学的会说，他是独一无二的样本，别，别去试，这整件事的重点是要创造出——你为什么会想——不可能，是啊，没错，乔不是偶然冒出来的，乔非常非常非常聪明，特别聪明。如果你以为——这就好比，是乔自己一手打造了这个东西，这不是一个政党会采用的打造方式。首先，这不是他打造出来的，不是那样，不是靠事先规划，好让民主党能够有自己的声音，他就是做他自己，是的，没错而某个自称民主党人的人也会那样做，但不是靠模仿他，那是不可能的不会的，他们会通过搞清楚对这个新的、古怪的共和党群体的反对立场应该是什么来做到这一点以及可以提出什么样的、有吸引力的愿景，你知道，我今天看到有个民主党人声称民主党才是工人阶级真正的代言人
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know I read today some democrat claiming that the Democrats are the true voice of the working class it's like I don't think so I think that ship is sailed and maybe the Democrats should be the true voice of the working class but they're certainly not and in principle that would mean that there's an opportunity there on the Democrat side to forge A New Path mean Clinton managed that in the 90s this this has happened many times it could happen again but there's a lot of learning that's going to have to take place before that happens so certainly learning about this new alternative media environment if you can't sit down for three hours and say what you actually think actually what you think right regardless of what might do to your reputation let's say you're not going to be successful in the podcast world that's absolutely true right podcasting is real I even for I'll just say because perhaps it's of Interest or maybe even actionable for people I mean I I get a little frightened every podcast certainly if I'm going to talk
我觉得不是吧，我觉得那班船已经开走了，也许民主党应该成为工人阶级真正的代言人，但他们现在肯定不是，原则上这意味着民主党那边有机会开辟一条新路，克林顿在90年代就做到了，这种事发生过很多次，还可能再发生，但有很多东西是要在那之前必须先发生一些事情，所以了解这个新的另类媒体环境确实很重要，如果你没法坐下来聊三个小时、说出你真正的想法，说出你真实的想法，对吧，不管这可能对你的声誉造成什么影响——那你在播客这个世界里就不会成功，这一点绝对没错，播客是真实的。我甚至——我就说一下，因为这也许有点意思，或者对大家来说甚至是可以付诸实践的。我是说，我每次做播客都会有点害怕，当然，如果我要聊的是，比如我正在建立某种关系，或者我在探索某个——我是说，我可以
3:33:13
about like I'm forming this relationship to or I'm exploring a I mean I'll talk about circuits in the brain all day long with with uh with no fear whatsoever that's my wheelhouse but anything that's new uh which is a a real exploration and evolution of of where I'm at um of course is going to evoke fear I also know that's where the growth is I would hate for this podcast to look the way it did on episode one now and um clearly this this conversation is a is a new direction that I've not taken before in this podcast and um but I'm delighted that it's happening want to say that and I think that some level of fear and anxiety about the unknown is is absolutely required and I think that that's something that hopefully any especially young people listening need to know you you're not supposed to perform well at the outset like in anything you're not can't that's why Yung said the fool is the precursor to the Redeemer you have to accept the role of fool voluntarily before you can improve improve of course when you start
整天聊大脑里的神经回路，一点都不怕，那是我的专业领域。但任何新的东西，任何真正属于探索、属于我自身状态演变的东西，当然会唤起恐惧。但我也知道，成长就在那里。我可不希望这档播客到今天还跟第一集时一个样子。而且，很明显，这次对话是一个我在这档播客里从未尝试过的新方向，但我很高兴它发生了，我想说明这一点。而且我认为，对未知抱有某种程度的恐惧和焦虑是绝对必要的，我觉得这是任何人——尤其是正在收听的年轻人——都需要知道的：你一开始本来就不该表现得好，不管做什么事都一样，你不可能一上来就做好。这就是为什么荣格说，愚者是救赎者的前身。你必须自愿接受愚者这个角色，然后才能进步。当然，当你开始一件新事物时，你注定是个傻瓜——你懂什么呢？所以这就是
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something new you're going to be an idiot like what do you know so so that's the price of Entry is to be a fool well you can be a voluntary fool and then you can then you have a bit of a sense of humor about yourself and that takes the sting out of it and maybe even makes you an attractive character despite your ignorance people will people will make tremendous allowances for ignorance that's voluntarily admitted to I've certainly made mistakes publicly apologize for the ones that I felt I should apologize for there's a slip of the tongue and make it said something went back and correct it was embarrassing but um the ability to laugh at oneself is is tremendously powerful genuinely laugh like just thinking like oh God where was I thing I understand this I you know sometimes we we air you know I have a couple of questions about you oh oh um I know you're the you're the clinician but uh and I'm not trying to play that role when you wake up in the morning is your mind in a good place typ Al or are
入场的代价：当一个傻瓜。不过你可以做一个自愿的傻瓜，那样你就能对自己保有一点幽默感，这会消解掉那份刺痛，甚至可能让你成为一个讨人喜欢的角色，尽管你无知——人们会对无知给予极大的宽容，只要你是主动承认的。我当然也公开犯过错误为那些我觉得该道歉的事情道过歉，有时候是口误，说错了话后来回去更正，挺尴尬的，但是呢，能够自嘲的能力是非常强大的，是真心地笑出来，就像是想着哦天哪，我当时在想什么，我懂这个感觉。我们有时候确实会犯错。我有几个关于你的问题哦，我知道你才是那个临床医生，但我并不是想扮演那个角色。你早上醒来的时候你的心态通常是好的吗？还是很煎熬？你的心绪大多数早晨会落在什么位置
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you tormented or you where does your where does your mind land most mornings first thing well I've I've suffered from a proclivity towards depression my whole life I would say and I would say the roughest part of the day for me is morning although it's way better than it once was um so when I get up I have a shower and make my bed and do something useful and then I'm pretty much I'm on my way you're into your tasks into the day MH and I I still have quite a lot of pain from whatever happened to me a couple of years ago and so that's annoying physical pain yeah yeah yeah so but psychologically my life is ridiculously it's absurdly interesting it's crazily and absurdly interesting all the time and so anyone with any sense would be like open mouthed in amazement and gratitude for that it's Preposterous and I have this tour that's going well it's been going for like six years really and your tour schedule is is super human I have to say having done some live shows I mean what you do with tours and I've been to one of your shows
一睁眼的时候。嗯，我这辈子可以说一直都有抑郁的倾向，我会说一天中对我来说最难熬的部分是早晨，不过现在比以前好太多了。所以我起床后会洗个澡铺好床，做点有用的事，然后基本上我就进入状态了。你就投入到任务里、进入这一天了。嗯，而且我几年前身上发生的那些事到现在还留下不少疼痛，所以挺烦人的。是身体上的疼痛吗？是的是的是的。但从心理上讲，我的生活简直有趣得离谱，一直都是荒唐地、疯狂地有趣，所以任何稍有理性的人都会为此张大嘴巴，充满惊叹和感激。这太不可思议了。而且我还有这个巡讲进行得很顺利，已经做了差不多六年了。而且你的巡讲日程简直是超人级别的，我不得不说，我自己也做过一些现场演出，我是说你那种巡讲的强度——我去过你的一场，我强烈推荐大家去看，非常
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I highly recommend people attend it was spectacular I I don't want to give too much away but it's not planned in the in the sense that there's a script or something it's very open and and but a real it's a quest an intellectual Quest right it's a real experience and men wear your jacket and tie because everyone else there going be wearing at least a jack up look look look respectable so my wife and I are touring from January through June and much of that's in the United States and then two months in Europe and so that's great because Europe is in trouble and going there to speak is a privilege and an honor and so that's ridic ridiculously exciting and people can find more out about the tour at jordanbpeterson.com the dates and so forth are all listed there um we launched Peterson Academy we where we want you to teach and that's going spectacularly well we had a place where people can hear lectures in a given domain yep yep yep we have 35 lectures online already each of them is sequenced over 6 to8 hours um which
精彩。我不想剧透太多，但它不是那种事先安排好的，我是说没有讲稿或者什么的，它非常开放，但是真正的——那是一场探索，一场思想上的求索，对，那是一次真实的体验。而且男士们记得穿西装打领带，因为在场其他人至少都会穿件外套，看起来体面一些。所以我和我太太的巡讲从一月一直到六月，其中很大一部分在美国，然后有两个月在欧洲，那很棒因为欧洲正处在麻烦当中，能去那里演讲是一种特权和荣幸，所以这非常非常令人兴奋。大家可以在 jordanbpeterson.com 上了解更多巡讲信息，日期之类的都列在那里。嗯，我们还创办了 Peterson Academy，我们希望你去那里授课，而且进展非常顺利。我们有一个地方让人们可以听某个领域的讲座。对对对，我们已经有 35 门课程上线了，每一门都分成 6 到 8 小时的系列，我会说这把相当于一整门大学课程的内容压缩进了那段
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compacts I would say the equivalent of a full University course into that span of time we're pursuing accreditation which I think is a high probability in the relatively not too distant future so that's ridiculously exciting because we can take the best lectures in the world and we can make them available to everyone and we built a social media element into it we took the best of the social media networks and people are using it like mad and it's 100% positive it's philosophically oriented it's mutually encouraging we threw four people off the platform out of 40,000 well three cuz we put one guy on probation cuz he said he'd improve and we established a positive culture there's no Bots there's no trolls no one's playing games and we watch and now you know the community has settled into a it's got an ethos already and I think that'll be self- sustaining so people are there to learn and to support each other learning got it it it launched out of the gate better than we thought it would even though we were optimistic and
时间。我们正在申请认证，我认为在不算太遥远的将来这有很大可能实现，所以这非常令人兴奋，因为我们可以把世界上最好的讲座拿来，让所有人都能接触到。而且我们在里面内置了一个社交媒体的元素，我们吸取了各家社交网络的长处，人们用得不亦乐乎，而且是百分之百正面的。它以哲学为导向，是相互鼓励的。四万人里我们只把四个人踢出了平台嗯，其实是三个，因为有一个人我们给了察看期，他说他会改进。我们建立了一种积极的文化，那里没有机器人，没有喷子，没有人在耍花招，我们一直在观察。现在你知道，这个社区已经沉淀出了——它已经有了自己的风气，我认为那会是可以自我维持的。所以人们到那里是为了学习，也为了支持彼此学习。明白了。它上线于一开局就比我们预想的要好，尽管我们本来就挺乐观的，而且我得说，我们提供的内容质量确实超出了
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I would say the quality of what we're offering exceeded it certainly exceeded my expectations it's well we we showed Michael malice Michael malice did a course for us on totalitarianism and he takes that rather personally given his family background and he said that the trailer brought him to tears and that's my now I can be easily brought to tear so I don't know if I'm the best like around certain topics I've cried a times on this podcast this year and a few others so that was that was a uh a vulnerability I'd never expected but yeah well it's good to know I'm not alone in that not alone I'm less susceptible now that I'm more healthy but but I feel the same way about what we're producing because it's exactly if you were a professor and you wanted the best possible courses to be available to people and you saw these you'd think target hit and and that's ridiculously fun and so and I have a great relationship with my wife and my kids and you have some grandkids now too I do and two more on the way W
超出了我的预期。嗯，我们给迈克尔·马利斯看过，迈克尔·马利斯给我们做了一门关于极权主义的课程，考虑到他的家庭背景，他对这个话题的感受相当个人化，他说那个预告片让他落泪了，而这就是我的——不过我这人挺容易哭的，所以我不知道自己是不是最好的评判标准，像是在某些话题上，我今年在这个播客上就哭过好几次，还有别的场合，所以那是一种我从没预料到的脆弱时刻，不过，知道不只我一个人这样也挺好的。不只你一个，我现在身体更健康了，反而没那么容易被触动了但我对我们做出来的东西也有同样的感受，因为如果你是一位教授，你希望能有最好的课程提供给大家，然后你看到这些课，你会觉得：目标达成。而且这简直是不可思议地很有意思，而且我跟我太太还有孩子们的关系都非常好。你现在也有孙辈了吧？是的，还有两个马上要出生了。
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congratulations you know with and I have an endless field of Stellar opportunity in front of me so hopefully I have enough sense to appreciate that and hope and I do I do appreciate it and I know it's unlikely so a long way from posting lectures on YouTube which is where uh most people originally found you if they wereing about that that's certainly how I learned about you I thought this guy's talking about really interesting things in the fields of psychology he knows who Yak PP is and um and he's posting on YouTube can I ask what inspired that move was that from well conscious was that calling or conscience or both um it was probably mostly calling because the fundamental motivation was and I think it is my fundamental motivation is curiosity you know I watched YouTube and I thought H what the hell is this video on demand worldwide what does that mean it means the spoken word is now as permanent as the written word and more easily disseminated I thought oh that's a spectacular and World altering
恭喜啊。你知道，我面前还有无穷无尽的、精彩绝伦的机会，所以希望我有足够的悟性去珍惜这一切。希望如此。我确实珍惜，我也知道这很难得。这离在YouTube上发讲座已经走了很远了，大多数人最初就是在那儿发现你的，如果他们当时在关注的话。我当然也是那样知道你的。我当时想，这个人谈的都是心理学领域里特别有意思的东西，他知道雅克·潘克塞普是谁，而且他还在YouTube上发视频。我能问问是什么促使你这么做的吗？是出于自觉，是使命的召唤，还是出于良知，或者兼而有之？嗯，大概主要是一种召唤吧，因为最根本的动机是——我想这也是我最根本的动机——好奇心，你知道吗，我看了看YouTube，心想：搞什么，这个'全球随选视频'是什么意思？它意味着口头说出的话现在和写下来的文字一样永久保存，而且传播起来更容易。我心想，哦，这可是一场了不起、能改变世界的
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Revolution that's what it looks like to me this was like in 2010 you know when it was mostly cat videos I thought might as well put my videos up there and see what happens and so see what happens right that's an adventure and so I did that [Music] for maybe maybe seven years somewhere between five and seven years before things exploded around me and that was also extremely helpful because when I opposed the Trudeau government's attempt to compel my speech in the form of Bill c16 I was immediately pillared as a you know right-wing Nazi even though I'd spent my whole career publicizing the horrors of the Nazi Administration and teaching my students how not to fall prey to totalitarian Temptation like that was the core of my career um I had like 200 hours of lectures up on you already so when all that negative attention was drawn to me people started looking at the lectures and the huge Advantage there was that there wasn't a single really there wasn't a single important word I'd said to students in the last 20 years that
革命。在我看来就是这样。那大概是2010年，那时候YouTube上大多还是猫咪视频。我心想，不如把我的视频也放上去看看会发生什么。看看会发生什么，对吧，这就是一场冒险。于是我就这么做了 [音乐] 大概有七年吧，大概是五到七年之间，然后周围的一切就爆炸了。而那件事也帮了大忙，因为当我反对特鲁多政府试图以C-16法案的形式强制规定我的言论时，我立刻就被钉在耻辱柱上，被说成是右翼纳粹——尽管我整个职业生涯都在向公众揭露纳粹政权的恐怖，并教导我的学生如何不落入极权主义的诱惑。那可是我职业生涯的核心啊。我当时已经有大约200小时的讲座放在网上了，所以当所有那些负面关注涌向我的时候，人们开始去看那些讲座。这里头巨大的优势在于，我在过去20年里对学生说过的每一个重要的字，没有一个是没有被录下来的。而那些认定我是个卑劣之徒的人，
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wasn't recorded and the people who decided that you know I was a reprehensible character had every opportunity to go through everything I'd said with a fine- tooth comb which you can be absolutely certain they did and they couldn't find one thing I ever said that led any Ence whatsoever to their accusations and so that was a Breaking Point in some ways for cancel culture because there were very forceful attempts to counsel me and so people went and checked me out and they thought huh nothing he says falls into alignment with what he's being accused about well you know that what would you say that was part of the dam breaking with regards to the corruption of the Legacy Media So Not only was what I was accused of a lie it was exactly the opposite of the truth which is the most profound kind of lie so YouTube helped me out a lot there you've certainly prevailed and uh we're all so far well I guess that that speaks to what I was going to say which is that um I want to thank you for posting those videos on YouTube and for
有充分的机会用放大镜把我说过的每一句话都过一遍——你完全可以肯定他们真的这么干了——但他们找不出我说过的任何一句话，能够哪怕一丁点儿支持他们的指控。所以从某种意义上说，那是取消文化的一个转折点。因为当时有非常强势的取消我的企图，于是人们跑去查我，然后他们想，嗯，他说的话没有一句和他被指控的东西对得上。所以你会怎么说呢，那算是堤坝开始决口的一部分吧。关于传统媒体的腐败问题。所以我被指控的不仅是谎言，而且恰恰是事实的反面，这是最深层次的谎言。所以 YouTube 在那件事上帮了我大忙。你确实挺过来了，呃，我们大家到现在——嗯，我想这正好说到我想讲的，就是我想感谢你把那些视频发到 YouTube 上，感谢你踏上那段旅程，因为那确实是一段漫长
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entering that Adventure because it certainly was the beginning of a long adventure that's still happening now where you continue to take risks that are healthy risks in service to trying to understand the truth and share that and I must say never with the the stance that you know absolutely right for everybody but certainly where you have felt you could share useful knowledge at the Practical level like really how to operationalize like clean up your room right you know um do these things to try and discover your path get on your path set your sights to the right level um and to make that a daily practice and a and a repeated lifelong practice is really spectacular and it's obviously inspired millions of people including myself I'll also say that it's really wonderful that you are also continuing to do that that yourself and making that visible to people your Live Events of course are an exploration in the moment where you raise a question and ask a question and address it it's not pre-planned and I must say that your
冒险的开始，而且到今天还在继续，你一直在冒着那些健康的风险，只为了努力理解真相并把它分享出来。我必须说，你从来没有摆出那种自以为绝对正确、适用于所有人的姿态，但在你觉得能分享有用知识的地方，你确实做到了，而且是在实操层面——真的很具体，比如怎么落实、把你的房间收拾干净，对吧。呃，做这些事去尝试发现你的路，走上你的路，把目标设定在正确的高度，把这变成每天的练习，变成反复坚持一辈子的练习，真的非常了不起。这显然启发了数百万人，包括我自己。我还想说，真的很棒的是，你自己也在继续这样做，并且让人们看得见。你的现场活动当然是一种当下的探索，你在那里提出一个问题，问出来，然后去回应它，它不是事先安排好的。我必须说，你这一路
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progression of books and podcasts and where things are going now in particular that today you said you are hopeful that the Democratic party I think most people assume that you're very right leaning I'm not going to assume one way or the other but the fact that you are intentionally inviting and hoping for opposition so that power is checked and things continue in the right direction I think that's really beautiful because what you're asking for is more balance as opposed to more skewing of knowledge and power and I think um that's a terrific example and it's clear that you live right near the edge uh in order to inspire us to basically explore knowledge explore ancient teachings and merge them with where we are now yeah it's been unbelievably rewarding I mean part of the reason that my wife and I keep touring is because we meet all these people and they put their lives together it's thousands and thousands of people it's so gratifying you know wherever we go the probability that someone will
从书到播客的推进，尤其是现在事情的走向——今天你说你希望民主党……我想大多数人都以为你非常右倾，我不打算往任何一边去假设，但事实是你有意地邀请并期待有反对的力量存在，好让权力受到制衡，事情能朝正确的方向继续走。我觉得这真的很美，因为你所要求的是更多的平衡，而不是让知识和权力更加失衡。我觉得，嗯，这是一个极好的榜样。而且很明显你一直生活在边缘附近，呃，就为了激励我们去探索知识、探索古老的教义，并把它们和我们当下所处的位置融合起来。是啊，这带来的回报大到难以置信。我是说，我和我妻子一直坚持巡回演讲，部分原因就是我们会遇到这么多人，他们把自己的人生重新整理好了，是成千上万的人，这太让人欣慰了。你知道，我们走到哪里，都很可能会有人
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come up and say thank you but then when I ask like for what what do you mean exactly what changed they tell me and there isn't anything better that can happen to you than to travel around the world and have perfect strangers come up to you as friends and tell you that their lives are far better than they would have been because of their efforts and because of their encounter with what you've been doing like if you could pray for anything to happen to you there's not a possibility that you could come up with a better wish than that and so it's great it's great and and it's fascinating to explore its continuation and to observe the consequences and it's a privilege to be in that it's an immense what would you say it's unspeakably immense privilege to be in that position and it's so great to see people like you and fredman and Chris Williamson and all these other podcasters who are pursuing the same vision and so successfully and to see the massive effect that's having on people that's such a good deal so and I
走上来说声谢谢，但当我问，为什么呢？你具体指的是什么？什么改变了？他们就会告诉我。没有什么比这更好的事了——你周游世界，有素不相识的人像朋友一样走过来，告诉你他们的生活比原本会有的样子好得多，因为他们自己的努力，也因为他们遇到了你在做的事情。就是说，如果你能祈求任何事情发生在自己身上，你也不可能想出比这更好的愿望了。所以这很棒，真的很棒。而且去探索它的延续、观察它的后果，是件很有意思的事，能身处其中是一种特权，是一种巨大的——怎么说呢——难以言表的巨大特权，能处在那个位置上。而且能看到像你、还有弗里德曼、克里斯·威廉森，以及所有这些追求同样愿景的播客主如此成功，看到这对人们产生的巨大影响，真是太好了。所以，而且我
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do believe it's the sort of thing that's in a deeply personalized way available to anyone who follows their calling and conscience well thank you for those words I I also agree it's freely available by people being themselves and as you said following their curiosity and conscience thank you for coming here here today and sharing with us where you're at now your knowledge and please come back again I really enjoyed this hey anytime I appreciate the invitation very much and uh it's a pleasure watching your progress forward and seeing you propagate all the remarkable discoveries that have been made in in the field of Neuroscience because it's quite the credible Enterprise and people need to know the biology of motivation let's say and the biology of emotion and and uh it's great to see you managing that in a sophisticated way with so many people it's a good deal for everybody thank you it's a labor of love ins inspired in no small part by you and my other podcast colleagues and in your case my academic colleague so thank you
确实相信，这种事情以一种非常个人化的方式，向任何追随自己的使命和良知的人敞开。嗯，谢谢你说这些话。我也同意，只要人们做自己，就像你说的那样跟随自己的好奇心，这就是人人都能得到的。以及良知——谢谢您今天来到这里，和我们分享您现在的思考、您的见解，也请您再来做客，我真的很享受这次对话。随时欢迎，我非常感谢您的邀请，而且看着你一路的进展、看着你把神经科学领域那些了不起的发现传播出去，是件很愉快的事，因为这确实是件了不起的事业，人们需要了解，比如说动机的生物学机制、情绪的生物学机制，而且很高兴看到你用如此专业的方式，把这些带给这么多人，这对大家都是好事。谢谢，这是一份用爱做的事业，在很大程度上也是受你和我其他播客同行的启发，而对你来说，还是我的学术同仁，所以谢谢你，
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Jordan thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr Jordan Peterson to find links to Dr Peterson's work his social media his new book we who wrestle with God as well as a link to the Peterson Academy please see the show note captions if you're learning from and are enjoying this podcast please subscribe to our YouTube channel that's a terrific zero cost way to support us please also click follow for the podcast on both Spotify and apple and on both Spotify and apple you can leave us up to a five-star review please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode that's the best way to support this podcast if you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or topics or guests that you'd like me to consider for the hubman Lab podcast please put those in the comment section on YouTube I do read all the comments and if you're not already following me on social media I am huberman lab on all social media platforms so that's Instagram X formerly known as Twitter
Jordan。感谢各位收听今天我与 Jordan Peterson 博士的对话。想找 Peterson 博士的作品链接、他的社交媒体、他的新书《我们与神摔跤》，以及 Peterson Academy 的链接，请查看节目说明或视频字幕说明。如果你从这档播客中有所收获并且喜欢它，请订阅我们的 YouTube 频道，这是零成本支持我们的绝佳方式。也请在 Spotify 和 Apple 上关注这档播客，在 Spotify 和 Apple 上你还可以给我们留下最高五星的评价。也请关注今天节目开头以及节目中提到的赞助商，那是支持这档播客最好的方式。如果你对我有疑问、对播客有意见，或者有希望我为 Huberman Lab 播客考虑的主题或嘉宾，请把它们写在 YouTube 的评论区，我会阅读所有评论。如果你还没有在社交媒体上关注我，我在所有社交平台上的账号都是 Huberman Lab，也就是Instagram、X（前身是 Twitter）、Facebook、Threads 和 LinkedIn。在所有这些平台上，我都会讨论科学以及
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Facebook threads and Linkedin and on all those platforms I discuss science and science related tools some of which overlaps with the content of the hubman Lab podcast but much of which is distinct from the content on the huberman Lab podcast again that's hubman lab on all social media platforms for those of you that haven't heard I have a new book coming out it's my very first book it's entitled protocols an operating manual for the human body this is a book that I've been working on for more than 5 years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience and it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to Stress Control protocols related to focus and motivation and of course I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included the book is now available by pre-sale at protocols book.com there you can find links to various vendors you can pick the one that you like best again the book is called protocols an operating manual for the human body and if you
与科学相关的工具，其中一部分与 Huberman Lab 播客的内容有重合，但也有很多内容是Huberman Lab 播客里没有的。再说一次，所有社交平台上都是 Huberman Lab。对于还不知道的朋友，我有一本新书即将出版，这是我的第一本书，书名叫《Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body》（方案：人体操作手册）。这本书我已经写了五年多，它建立在超过三十年的研究和实践经验之上，内容涵盖了从睡眠、运动、压力控制，到与专注和动机相关的各种方案，当然，我也为书中收录的每个方案提供了科学依据。这本书现已在 protocolsbook.com 开启预售，在那里你可以找到各家销售渠道的链接，挑你最喜欢的那一家。再说一次，书名是《Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body》。如果你
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haven't already subscribe to our neural network newsletter the neural network newsletter is a zeroc cost monthly newsletter that includes everything from podcast summaries to what we call protocols in the form of brief 1 to three page PDFs that cover things like how to optimize your sleep how to regulate your dopamine we also have protocols related to deliberate cold exposure get a lot of questions about that deliberate heat exposure and on and on again all available at completely zero cost you simply go to hubman lab.com go to the menu tab in the top right corner scroll down to newsletter and enter your email and I should mention that we do not share your email with anybody thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Dr Jordan Peterson and last but certainly not least thank you for your interest in science [Music]
还没有订阅我们的 Neural Network 通讯，这是一份零成本的月度通讯，内容包括播客摘要，以及我们称之为“方案”的一到三页简短 PDF，涵盖诸如如何优化睡眠、如何调节多巴胺等主题。我们还有关于主动冷暴露的方案——关于这个我们收到很多提问——以及主动热暴露等等等等，再说一次，全部完全免费。你只需要访问 hubermanlab.com，点右上角的菜单栏，往下滚动到 newsletter，输入你的邮箱即可。我要说明一下，我们不会把你的邮箱分享给任何人。再次感谢各位收听今天我与 Jordan Peterson 博士的对话，最后同样重要的是，感谢你对科学的关注。[音乐]
视频总结 · 一句话概括与核心要点
一句话概括
彼得森与休伯曼用神经科学（下丘脑、前额叶、多巴胺）重述宗教心理学：底层动机不是"冲动"而是成套的"亚人格"，成熟不是抑制它们而是把它们整合进一个朝向最高目标的超序人格——而"目标 = 冒险 = 责任 = 真理"这条等式，正是从成瘾、色情、科学腐败到社会衰败的统一解释框架与解药。
核心要点
- "冲动"是错误的建模，动机状态其实是带知觉、情绪和辩解话术的小型人格。 行为主义用链式反射解释一切走得很远，但解释不到人类最高层活动。证据是动机改变的是知觉而非只是行为：刺激下丘脑腹内侧核的小鼠只在有同类或有充气手套时攻击，独处时不会攻击笼壁——说明被激活的是"把某物归类为可击败之敌"的知觉框架，这是策略不是反射。成瘾的"撒谎"同理，谎言是那个亚人格为自身病态行为编的合理化。
- 社会化的正确模型是"整合"而非"抑制"，弗洛伊德的超我模型不如皮亚杰。 彼得森用儿子罚坐台阶举例：目标不是让他停止攻击性，而是把攻击性置于更高目标之下——结果他成了优秀运动员。团队运动员在场上不是不攻击也不是压抑攻击，而是让攻击服从于更高阶目标。人类需要约 18–25 年社会化窗口，说明生物默认设置不足以导航未来。
- 多神教到一神教的演变对应个体的心理成熟过程。 埃利亚德（《神圣与世俗》）记录了全球范围内多神→一神的转变模式。多神即各动机系统各自为政：战神玛尔斯即"愤怒"回路；维京人服用毒蝇伞（毒蕈碱型乙酰胆碱受体，非典型致幻剂）把愤怒人格调成超序、屏蔽痛觉。两岁小孩的状态就是默认的多神教。
- 反社会行为的早期分布数据极不均匀，且窗口极短。 特朗布莱实验室的结论：把两岁儿童放一起是所有年龄段中最具攻击性的，而"踢、抢、打、咬"这类早发反社会行为几乎全部出现在男孩身上，且只占约 5%。其中绝大多数在四岁前完成社会化；未完成的那批因无朋友而被疏离，成为少年犯、早发罪犯、惯犯。彼得森补充：精神病态可理解为"不成熟延续到成年"，其标志是无法从经验中学习——即背叛自己的未来自我，机制与背叛他人完全相同。
- 超常刺激（supernormal stimulus）是理解色情、加工食品、毒品的共同钥匙。 三刺鱼腹部红点会激怒同类，而比自然界更大更亮的红点产生几乎不可抗拒的反应——最大激活来自自然界中不存在的刺激。色情正是如此：任何 13 岁男孩一天内能看到的超常刺激女性，多于一百年前最成功的男人一生所见。加上零成本可得、加上多巴胺对新奇的额外加成，使用模式必然向更极端、更恋物化滑坡以维持新奇边际。
- 加工食品劫持的是两条独立的饱足通路。 口腔只能学"味道—热量"关联，肠道才知道营养素含量：肠神经元感知糖、脂肪酸、氨基酸，经迷走神经via结状神经节上行至多巴胺中枢。因为不存在"必需碳水"（只有必需氨基酸和必需脂肪酸），吃进低必需营养素的食物会让觅食系统持续运转直到摄够——这就是空热量的机制。休伯曼的实测例子：吃完牛排已达饱足，一口面食（血糖升高直连多巴胺系统）立刻重启食欲。
- 弗里斯顿的熵解释给了情绪一个物理学基础。 彼得森与学生的结论是焦虑标志熵的涌现；弗里斯顿补上正向的一半：向目标推进一步就减少了追求过程的不确定性，因而获得多巴胺奖赏——这解释了"看见终点线就跑得更快"。推论极重要：目标越有价值，单位进展的多巴胺回报越高，所以应让一个终极目标运行于每个近端子目标之中。
- 亚伯拉罕的故事被读成一份关于"冒险"的生物学契约。 亚伯拉罕生于富足、父母供养，直到 75 岁才被"召唤之声"叫离舒适区。神给出四重回报：生命成为你自己的祝福、因此获得（男性极看重、与繁殖成功高度相关的）声望、建立跨世代持久之物（成为万国之父）、并给共同体带来丰饶。彼得森的论证是反证式的：要么不存在冒险的内驱力（极不可能），要么这内驱力与心理社会福祉不一致——若如此我们根本不会是社会性动物。
- "责任 = 冒险"是保守派也没搞懂的那一环。 保守派把责任说成尽责的、有序的生产力；但邦德电影之所以抓人，恰恰是因为赌注高、要承担风险与牺牲。可操作化的入口极低：整理房间、每天十分钟收拾车库、耙自家草坪（休伯曼引安娜·蓝波的说法）。理由是过程是指数的——即便从零开始，只要持续翻倍就会比预想更快抵达；反向也成立，一位遗传学家同事说进化一个物种要很多代，退化只要很少几代。
- 科学本身必须嵌在故事里，否则会退化。 做真科学要求把"发现自己错了"置于"证明自己对了"之前，这在短期内损害职业生涯，所以科学被职业主义腐蚀是可预期的默认状态——彼得森认为它真正运作的窗口大约只有 1550–1980 年，只发生过一次。休伯曼给出现实佐证：某子领域 95% 的人做相似问题、互相授奖、互相评审、互相拨款，而阿尔茨海默症领域伪造数据的事让整个方向空转约 15 年，且有人知情。价值中立本身不构成防护——追求埃博拉与天花杂交并气溶胶化，"纯科学上"与任何其他分支无异。
- 色情的核心毒性在于把不确定性降为零，也就取消了学习。 现实关系的结构是被拒绝、被修正、不兼容、进展不明——被拒绝恰恰是女性提供给你的纠错信号。逃离拒绝换来的不是解脱，而是没有改进、没有远距效应（action at a distance）。休伯曼把这条串成全篇主线：人类建立在投掷平台上，"罪"（希伯来语、希腊语 hamartia）的字面义都是"射失目标"；从火箭到生育到传播知识都是远距行动，而色情—自慰把全部多巴胺驱力回环到自身，无处可去。
- "玩"是暴政的对立面，这是潘克塞普的贡献。 潘克塞普证明动物若处于任何其他动机状态下就不会出现玩耍——玩耍需要条件先被小心安排好。更大的发现是：功能正常的等级秩序常常通过玩耍而非武力形成（老鼠、黑猩猩、儿童皆然），这直接反驳福柯的权力叙事。彼得森引佩利亚的话：若学界当年转向诺伊曼而非福柯，过去五十年的知识史会完全不同；权力不构成心理整合或社会统一的稳定基础。
结论与值得注意的细节
实践处方被压缩成两个问题："我身边有什么是我能修好、且我愿意修的？"（召唤）和"我身上有什么让我自己困扰？"（良心）。彼得森把召唤与良心分别对应整合后的正向情绪与负向情绪之声，并称以利亚是人类史上第一个把神性等同于良心（"微小的声音"）的人，视之为一次未被表彰的心理学革命。
《登山宝训》被读成一套元目标策略，三步：先把目光举向最高处（设定这一"episode"的知觉框架）→ 假定他人同样分有那个终极目标并如此待之 → 全神贯注于当下。彼得森指出其中的"反常最优性"：正因为你瞄准的是最长时间尺度和最高处，你才能最大限度地利用眼前之物。恐惧的对应版本是暴露疗法与屠龙神话——重要的不是解决某个具体恐惧，而是采取"自愿趋近"这个元策略，它不让人更不怕，而让人更有能力、更勇敢，并且会泛化。
几处具体数据与引用：日本与韩国 30 岁以下人群约 30% 为处女、生育率远低于更替水平；西方约 50% 女性 30 岁时无子女，其中约四分之一将非自愿无子女；彼得森称这是《启示录》中"猩红兽与巴比伦大淫妇"的现实对应——兽最终杀死淫妇，即无牺牲的性满足最终毁灭性本身。休伯曼贡献的神经解剖细节：人类额叶眼动区（frontal eye fields）相比其他物种大幅扩张，使注视从反射变为语境依赖的自愿行为；去皮层的猫或猫头鹰会变成"点哪儿看哪儿"的机器；一只只剩下丘脑的猫仍能在受控环境中表现得几乎正常且超常探索。
Peterson 的推荐书单：埃利亚德《神圣与世俗》（入门）、埃里希·诺伊曼《意识的起源与历史》（更难）、埃伦伯格《发现无意识》（他称之为分析弗洛伊德/荣格/阿德勒的最佳著作，并把无意识概念上溯到弗洛伊德之前 350 年）；休伯曼推荐《被讨厌的勇气》（阿德勒心理学）。两人都认为潘克塞普的《情感神经科学》是目前最接近"脑—心智—心理学"综合著作的东西，并当场提议合写一本。彼得森自陈终身有抑郁倾向、早晨最难，靠洗澡、铺床、做点有用的事起步；两年前那场身体状况留下的疼痛仍在。
Peterson 反复提到自己对民主党的公开邀请（约八年前起，与 Rogan、Rubin、Shapiro 等一同发出）始终无人接受，并强调他希望存在一个有力的反对党——因为无人制衡的执政必然出问题，这一点对共和党人自身同样成立。
核心句型 · 10
1. it's much better to think of X as Y
“It's much better to think of those lower order motivational States as personalities”
提出更好的概念化方式时用的标准句式，比 "X is Y" 温和，留出争论空间。仿写：It's much better to think of failure as data rather than as a verdict.
2. it wasn't like … it's that …
“It wasn't like he stopped being assertive or even aggressive it's that he learned how to put that aggression in its proper place”
先否定一个容易被误会的解读，再给出真正的解释。适合纠正对方的误读，语气不对抗。
3. the more … the less …
“The more alert we are the less we are able to take ourselves into Notions of this two shall pass”
比较级并列表达此消彼长的关系，两个分句都不用 that。仿写：The more urgent it feels, the less carefully we choose.
4. there's no difference between A and B
“There's no difference between responsibility and Adventure they're the same thing”
把两个看似相反的概念强行等同，是本场最常用的论证动作。用于抛出反直觉论点，后面通常紧跟解释。
5. what that means is that …
“What that means is that they are so non communitarian that they're willing to even betray their own future selves”
把刚说完的事实翻译成含义，口语讲解中承上启下的黏合剂。可与 what that implies is 换用。
6. in so far as …, you are …
“In so far as you encourage that you are a good father”
in so far as 给出「在某个限度内成立」的条件式论断，比 if 更精确，学术写作高频。
7. it's not surprising that … unless there was …
“It's not at all surprising that people would subvert an Enterprise that difficult to the narrow demands of career enhancement it's exactly what you'd expect unless there was a stunningly powerful counterveiling force”
先把坏结果说成默认预期，再用 unless 引出唯一的例外条件。写批评性分析时特别有力。
8. well why wouldn't …?
“Well why wouldn't they be Gods”
反问句用来把举证责任推给对方：不是我要证明，而是你得说明为什么不。口语与辩论中都很好用。
9. that's exactly what you'd expect
“That's exactly what you'd expect that's the historical Norm”
用于把一个看似意外的现象归入常态，常紧接在归因之后收尾。
10. X is the antithesis of Y
“Play is the antithesis of tyranny seems to be a pretty good summation”
用 antithesis 断言彻底对立，比 opposite 更书面、更有分量。适合概括性论断的收束句。
词汇精讲 · 200 · 按出现顺序
Opthalmology
/ˌɑːfθælˈmɑːlədʒi/
n.
0:00
眼科学（原文拼写如此，规范拼法为 ophthalmology）
hypothalamus
/ˌhaɪpoʊˈθæləməs/
n.
0:00
下丘脑，调节饥渴、体温、攻击与性行为的脑区
prefrontal cortex
/ˌpriːˈfrʌntl ˈkɔːrteks/
n.
0:00
前额叶皮层，负责计划、抑制与依情境决策
generative
/ˈdʒenərətɪv/
adj.
1:03
有生成力的、能产的；本期指「能创造出新东西的」
lay the groundwork
phr.
4:53
打基础、做铺垫（后接 for）
putrid
/ˈpjuːtrɪd/
adj.
5:59
腐臭的、腐败的
executive function
n.
5:59
执行功能，指计划、抑制、切换等高阶认知控制
Circle back
/ˈsɜːrkl bæk/
phr. v.
5:59
（话题）绕回来再谈；会议与访谈里的高频用法
inhibition
/ˌɪnhɪˈbɪʃn/
n.
6:59
抑制（神经科学义），与 excitation 相对
aversive
/əˈvɜːrsɪv/
adj.
6:59
令人厌恶的、会引发回避的
encased
/ɪnˈkeɪst/
v.
9:10
被包裹在……之中（encase in）
unsophisticated
/ˌʌnsəˈfɪstɪkeɪtɪd/
adj.
10:18
不精细的、粗糙的；本期贬义偏「不成熟」
super ego
/ˌsuːpər ˈiːɡoʊ/
n.
10:18
超我，弗洛伊德人格结构中的道德监督部分
willful
/ˈwɪlfl/
adj.
10:18
任性固执的、我行我素的
formidable
/ˈfɔːrmɪdəbl/
adj.
10:18
令人敬畏的、难以对付的
tussling
/ˈtʌsəlɪŋ/
n. / v.
10:18
扭打、较劲；此处指与孩子反复拉锯
subordinate
/səˈbɔːrdɪneɪt/
v.
11:32
使从属于（subordinate A to B）
predicated
/ˈpredɪkeɪtɪd/
v.
12:34
以……为前提（be predicated on）
deterministic
/dɪˌtɜːrmɪˈnɪstɪk/
adj.
12:34
决定论的，认为结果由前因完全确定
strata
/ˈstrætə/
n. pl.
12:34
层级（stratum 的复数）
subpersonalities
/ˌsʌbpɜːrsəˈnælətiz/
n. pl.
13:37
子人格，本期核心术语
rationalizations
/ˌræʃnələˈzeɪʃnz/
n. pl.
13:37
（为行为找的）合理化说辞
counterproductive
/ˌkaʊntərprəˈdʌktɪv/
adj.
14:44
适得其反的
superordinate
/ˌsuːpərˈɔːrdɪnət/
adj.
15:51
上位的、更高阶的（与 subordinate 相对）
Dominion
/dəˈmɪnjən/
n.
15:51
支配权、统治；此处指某一人格占上风
whim
/wɪm/
n.
15:51
一时兴起、心血来潮
primordial
/praɪˈmɔːrdiəl/
adj.
15:51
原始的、最初的
overarching
/ˌoʊvərˈɑːrtʃɪŋ/
adj.
16:56
总揽全局的、涵盖一切的
hone
/hoʊn/
v.
16:56
磨砺、打磨（技能或方式）
inanimate
/ɪnˈænɪmət/
adj.
18:01
无生命的
antisocial
/ˌæntiˈsoʊʃl/
adj.
20:08
反社会的（临床义，非「不爱社交」）
archaic
/ɑːrˈkeɪɪk/
adj.
21:17
远古的、古老而过时的
deities
/ˈdiːətiz/
n. pl.
21:17
神祇（deity 的复数）
invoked
/ɪnˈvoʊkt/
v.
21:17
召唤、祈求（神明）；也指援引（条款）
nicotinic
/ˌnɪkəˈtɪnɪk/
adj.
22:21
烟碱型的（乙酰胆碱受体的一类）
muscarinic
/ˌmʌskəˈrɪnɪk/
adj.
22:21
毒蕈碱型的（乙酰胆碱受体的另一类）
atypical
/ˌeɪˈtɪpɪkl/
adj.
22:21
非典型的、不合常规的
decapitate
/dɪˈkæpɪteɪt/
v.
23:27
斩首
eviscerate
/ɪˈvɪsəreɪt/
v.
23:27
取出内脏、开膛；引申为「掏空（某物的实质）」
ventromedial
/ˌventroʊˈmiːdiəl/
adj.
24:22
腹内侧的（脑区定位术语）
interspersed
/ˌɪntərˈspɜːrst/
v.
24:22
交错分布、穿插其间
copulation
/ˌkɑːpjuˈleɪʃn/
n.
24:22
交配（生物学用语）
juxtaposition
/ˌdʒʌkstəpəˈzɪʃn/
n.
25:19
并置、并列对照
blinders
/ˈblaɪndərz/
n. pl.
26:22
（马的）眼罩；比喻视野受限，get blinders on
apprehension
/ˌæprɪˈhenʃn/
n.
26:22
此处取「领会、把握」义，非「忧虑」
indistinguishable
/ˌɪndɪˈstɪŋɡwɪʃəbl/
adj.
26:22
无法区分的（from）
maturation
/ˌmætʃəˈreɪʃn/
n.
27:21
成熟过程、发育成熟
forego gratification
phr.
27:21
放弃（即时）满足；心理学常写作 delay gratification
satiate
/ˈseɪʃieɪt/
v.
28:24
使满足、使饱足
hedonists
/ˈhiːdənɪsts/
n. pl.
28:24
享乐主义者
subjugated
/ˈsʌbdʒuɡeɪtɪd/
v.
28:24
被征服、被奴役（subjugate to）
psychopathy
/saɪˈkɑːpəθi/
n.
29:28
精神病态，以缺乏共情与悔意为特征的人格结构
notorious
/noʊˈtɔːriəs/
adj.
29:28
臭名昭著的（notorious for）
communitarian
/kəˌmjuːnɪˈteriən/
adj.
29:28
共同体主义的；此处指顾及「我们」的倾向
juvenile delinquents
/ˈdʒuːvənaɪl dɪˈlɪŋkwənts/
n. pl.
31:45
少年犯
remnant
/ˈremnənt/
n.
31:45
剩余的一小部分、残余
alienated
/ˈeɪliəneɪtɪd/
v. / adj.
31:45
被疏远的、被排斥在外的
predatory
/ˈpredətɔːri/
adj.
32:43
掠食性的；predatory aggression 掠食性攻击
upshot
/ˈʌpʃɑːt/
n.
33:43
最终结果、要点（the upshot is that…）
narcissism
/ˈnɑːrsɪsɪzəm/
n.
33:43
自恋
polytheistic
/ˌpɑːliθiˈɪstɪk/
adj.
35:55
多神论的
monotheistic
/ˌmɑːnoʊθiˈɪstɪk/
adj.
35:55
一神论的
profane
/prəˈfeɪn/
adj. / n.
35:55
世俗的、亵渎的；the sacred and the profane 神圣与世俗
purview
/ˈpɜːrvjuː/
n.
37:02
视野范围、权限范围
transfigured
/trænsˈfɪɡjərd/
v.
37:02
（形貌或性质）被彻底改变、被美化
possession
/pəˈzeʃn/
n.
37:02
此处取「附身、被灵体占据」义
full-fledged
/ˌfʊl ˈfledʒd/
adj.
38:03
完全成形的、羽翼丰满的
resentment
/rɪˈzentmənt/
n.
38:03
怨恨、积怨
interoception
/ˌɪntəroʊˈsepʃn/
n.
38:03
内感受，对身体内部状态的知觉
dopaminergic
/ˌdoʊpəmɪˈnɜːrdʒɪk/
adj.
39:10
多巴胺能的
relapse
/rɪˈlæps/
v. / n.
40:04
复发、复吸（成瘾治疗高频词）
craving
/ˈkreɪvɪŋ/
n.
40:04
强烈渴求；acute craving 急性渴求
Hallmarks
/ˈhɔːlmɑːrks/
n. pl.
40:04
典型标志、特征（a hallmark of）
intoxicated
/ɪnˈtɑːksɪkeɪtɪd/
adj.
44:05
醉酒的、中毒的（正式用语）
adored
/əˈdɔːrd/
v.
44:05
深爱、崇拜
sober
/ˈsoʊbər/
adj.
45:17
戒断状态的、清醒不醉的；get sober 戒瘾
Evangelical
/ˌiːvænˈdʒelɪkl/
adj. / n.
46:31
福音派的（新教派别）
dissertation
/ˌdɪsərˈteɪʃn/
n.
46:31
博士论文
affiliation
/əˌfɪliˈeɪʃn/
n.
46:31
隶属关系、所属机构或派别
anxiolytic
/ˌæŋksioʊˈlɪtɪk/
adj. / n.
47:34
抗焦虑的（药物）
mimics
/ˈmɪmɪks/
v.
47:34
模仿、模拟（某种感觉或效果）
methamphetamine
/ˌmeθæmˈfetəmiːn/
n.
48:35
甲基苯丙胺、冰毒
compulsion
/kəmˈpʌlʃn/
n.
51:40
强迫性冲动，明知不该却停不下来
culmination
/ˌkʌlmɪˈneɪʃn/
n.
52:40
顶点、最终达成
stickleback
/ˈstɪklbæk/
n.
52:40
棘鱼，经典动物行为学实验对象
super stimulus
/ˈsuːpər ˈstɪmjələs/
n.
53:46
超常刺激，强度超出自然界所能提供的刺激
palatable
/ˈpælətəbl/
adj.
54:46
可口的；引申指「（观点）易于接受的」
unrefined
/ˌʌnrɪˈfaɪnd/
adj.
55:48
未精制的（食品）；也指「粗鲁的」
macronutrient
/ˌmækroʊˈnuːtriənt/
n.
56:48
宏量营养素（蛋白质、脂肪、碳水）
parse
/pɑːrs/
v.
56:48
解析、拆解分析（原为语法术语）
forage
/ˈfɔːrɪdʒ/
v.
57:50
觅食、四处搜寻
revving
/ˈrevɪŋ/
v.
58:41
（引擎）高速运转；keep …revving 让某系统持续加速
satiating
/ˈseɪʃieɪtɪŋ/
adj.
59:35
使人有饱足感的
fetishistic
/ˌfetɪˈʃɪstɪk/
adj.
1:01:30
恋物癖的
Umami
/uːˈmɑːmi/
n.
1:02:32
鲜味，第五种基本味觉（源自日语）
condiments
/ˈkɑːndɪmənts/
n. pl.
1:02:32
调味品、佐料
captivated
/ˈkæptɪveɪtɪd/
v.
1:04:24
迷住、深深吸引
vicariously
/vaɪˈkeriəsli/
adv.
1:05:30
替代性地、间接体验地（如通过观赛获得快感）
propagating
/ˈprɑːpəɡeɪtɪŋ/
v.
1:08:28
繁殖、传播（基因或观念）
disperse
/dɪˈspɜːrs/
v.
1:10:26
分散开去、散布
proximal
/ˈprɑːksɪml/
adj.
1:11:35
近端的、就近的（与 distal 远端相对）
recedes
/rɪˈsiːdz/
v.
1:11:35
后退、渐行渐远
altar
/ˈɔːltər/
n.
1:13:55
祭坛（注意与 alter 区分）
abide by
/əˈbaɪd baɪ/
phr. v.
1:13:55
遵守、恪守（命令、规则）
punctuated
/ˈpʌŋktʃueɪtɪd/
v.
1:13:55
不时打断、被……点缀（be punctuated by）
Covenant
/ˈkʌvənənt/
n.
1:13:55
圣约、盟约（宗教与法律用语）
fortify
/ˈfɔːrtɪfaɪ/
v.
1:15:10
加固、强化（也指食品强化营养）
hearken
/ˈhɑːrkən/
v.
1:18:29
（古语）倾听、听从（hearken to）
offspring
/ˈɔːfsprɪŋ/
n.
1:18:29
后代、子嗣（单复数同形）
embodiment
/ɪmˈbɑːdimənt/
n.
1:20:40
化身、具体体现
emblematic
/ˌembləˈmætɪk/
adj.
1:21:45
象征性的、有代表性的（emblematic of）
agglomerating
/əˈɡlɑːməreɪtɪŋ/
v.
1:21:45
聚集成团、汇聚
superseded
/ˌsuːpərˈsiːdɪd/
v.
1:22:53
取代、替代（较正式）
exponentially
/ˌekspoʊˈnenʃəli/
adv.
1:27:27
呈指数地
hamartia
/ˌhɑːmɑːrˈtiːə/
n.
1:27:27
希腊语「脱靶」，亚里士多德诗学中的悲剧过失
psychophysiology
/ˌsaɪkoʊˌfɪziˈɑːlədʒi/
n.
1:28:25
心理生理学，研究心理过程的生理基础
tectum
/ˈtektəm/
n.
1:29:31
顶盖（中脑背侧结构，拉丁语「屋顶」）
fictive
/ˈfɪktɪv/
adj.
1:30:26
虚构的；fictive motion 指无实际位移的运动模式
theory of mind
n.
1:31:22
心智理论，推断他人意图与信念的能力
emanated
/ˈeməneɪtɪd/
v.
1:32:23
发出、散发（emanate from）
consecrated
/ˈkɑːnsɪkreɪtɪd/
v.
1:35:26
祝圣、奉献给神（consecrate to）
prosaically
/proʊˈzeɪɪkli/
adv.
1:35:26
平实地、不加修饰地（说得直白点）
allegiance
/əˈliːdʒəns/
n.
1:36:34
效忠、忠诚（establish an allegiance with）
exposure therapy
n.
1:40:03
暴露疗法，通过自愿面对恐惧源来治疗焦虑
pushover
/ˈpʊʃoʊvər/
n.
1:41:51
容易被摆布的人、软柿子
sweep it under the rug
phr.
1:41:51
把问题掩盖过去、遮丑不谈
rectify
/ˈrektɪfaɪ/
v.
1:41:51
纠正、矫正（错误或局面）
hijacked
/ˈhaɪdʒækt/
v.
1:43:02
劫持；此处指神经回路被某一动机接管
fleshed out
/fleʃt aʊt/
phr. v.
1:43:02
充实细节、把设想具体化
forgo
/fɔːrˈɡoʊ/
v.
1:43:57
放弃、舍弃（较正式）
intermittent random reinforcement
n.
1:45:56
间歇性随机强化，最难消退的强化程式，老虎机原理
weaned on
/wiːnd ɑːn/
phr.
1:45:56
从小靠……长大、自幼耳濡目染
entropy
/ˈentrəpi/
n.
1:47:55
熵，此处引申为不确定性的量度
pales in comparison
phr.
1:50:00
相形见绌、相比之下微不足道
salutary
/ˈsæljəteri/
adj.
1:51:01
有益的（尤指逆境带来的益处）
corrective
/kəˈrektɪv/
n. / adj.
1:52:03
纠正性反馈、矫正措施
pernicious
/pərˈnɪʃəs/
adj.
1:53:04
有害的、恶性的（尤指暗中蔓延的危害）
bottomless pit
phr.
1:53:04
无底洞
precursor
/prɪˈkɜːrsər/
n.
1:55:19
前身、先兆（precursor to）
fornication
/ˌfɔːrnɪˈkeɪʃn/
n.
1:55:19
淫乱（宗教语境用语）
enticement
/ɪnˈtaɪsmənt/
n.
1:58:55
诱饵、引诱之物
plummeted
/ˈplʌmɪtɪd/
v.
1:58:55
（数值）暴跌、直线下降
childless
/ˈtʃaɪldləs/
adj.
1:58:55
无子女的（人口统计常用）
starkest
/stɑːrkɪst/
adj.
2:00:13
最赤裸的、最严酷的（stark 的最高级）
demise
/dɪˈmaɪz/
n.
2:00:13
消亡、终结（较正式）
promiscuity
/ˌprɑːmɪsˈkjuːəti/
n.
2:01:17
性关系混乱、滥交
joined at the hip
phr.
2:01:17
形影不离、绑在一起
Trifecta
/traɪˈfektə/
n.
2:02:21
三连胜、三件套（源自赛马术语）
corollary
/ˈkɔːrəleri/
n.
2:03:41
推论、必然结果
conscientious
/ˌkɑːnʃiˈenʃəs/
adj.
2:03:41
尽责的、一丝不苟的（大五人格维度之一）
operationalize
/ˌɑːpəˈreɪʃənəlaɪz/
v.
2:04:52
把概念转化为可操作的步骤或指标
crucifixion
/ˌkruːsɪˈfɪkʃn/
n.
2:07:47
钉十字架、受难
dramatized
/ˈdræmətaɪzd/
v.
2:08:56
以戏剧方式演示出来；也指「夸大其词」
deteriorated
/dɪˈtɪriəreɪtɪd/
v.
2:09:59
恶化、衰败
empiricists
/ɪmˈpɪrɪsɪsts/
n. pl.
2:11:07
经验主义者
amalgam
/əˈmælɡəm/
n.
2:12:17
混合物、合成体
aerosolize
/ˈeroʊsəlaɪz/
v.
2:12:17
使气溶胶化，使可经空气传播
preposterous
/prɪˈpɑːstərəs/
adj.
2:13:29
荒谬绝伦的
Trope
/troʊp/
n.
2:13:29
（文艺作品中的）套路、老梗
lurking
/ˈlɜːrkɪŋ/
v.
2:13:29
潜伏、暗中存在
atrocity
/əˈtrɑːsəti/
n.
2:14:35
暴行
encapsulated
/ɪnˈkæpsjuleɪtɪd/
v.
2:14:35
被包裹在……之内；也指「概括」
disheartens
/dɪsˈhɑːrtnz/
v.
2:14:35
使气馁、令人沮丧
lineages
/ˈlɪniɪdʒɪz/
n. pl.
2:15:42
谱系、师承脉络
debacle
/dɪˈbɑːkl/
n.
2:16:38
惨败、崩盘性丑闻
falsified
/ˈfɔːlsɪfaɪd/
v.
2:16:38
伪造（数据）；注意与 falsify「证伪」区分
subvert
/səbˈvɜːrt/
v.
2:17:33
颠覆、使偏离本来目的
nepotism
/ˈnepətɪzəm/
n.
2:17:33
裙带关系、任人唯亲
incremental
/ˌɪnkrəˈmentl/
adj.
2:18:41
渐进式的、小步推进的
tenure
/ˈtenjər/
n.
2:19:36
（大学）终身教职
handmaiden
/ˈhændmeɪdn/
n.
2:19:36
侍女；比喻「附属品、服务于某物的东西」
stringent
/ˈstrɪndʒənt/
adj.
2:20:33
严苛的、严格的（规定或标准）
instill
/ɪnˈstɪl/
v.
2:21:42
逐渐灌输（价值或习惯）
triumvirate
/traɪˈʌmvərət/
n.
2:21:42
三巨头、三位一体的组合
truism
/ˈtruːɪzəm/
n.
2:23:59
老生常谈、不言自明的话
Redemptive
/rɪˈdemptɪv/
adj.
2:23:59
救赎性的
premonition
/ˌpriːməˈnɪʃn/
n.
2:25:02
预感、先兆
Proclamation
/ˌprɑːkləˈmeɪʃn/
n.
2:26:05
宣告、公开声明
concordance
/kənˈkɔːrdns/
n.
2:27:08
一致、契合
hoard
/hɔːrd/
v.
2:27:08
囤积、私藏
beckons
/ˈbekənz/
v.
2:29:23
招手示意、吸引前往
abyss
/əˈbɪs/
n.
2:31:27
深渊
devolve
/dɪˈvɑːlv/
v.
2:31:27
退化；也指权力下放
slovenly
/ˈslʌvənli/
adj.
2:32:32
邋遢的、不修边幅的
sloth
/slɔːθ/
n.
2:33:28
懒惰（七宗罪之一）；也指树懒
masquerading
/ˌmæskəˈreɪdɪŋ/
v.
2:33:28
伪装成（masquerade as）
veneer
/vəˈnɪr/
n.
2:33:28
薄饰面；比喻「表面的一层伪装」
tangential
/tænˈdʒenʃl/
adj.
2:34:30
离题的、间接相关的
schizotypal
/ˌskɪtsoʊˈtaɪpl/
adj.
2:35:39
分裂型（人格障碍）的
valedictorian
/ˌvælədɪkˈtɔːriən/
n.
2:36:43
毕业生代表，成绩最优者
grandiosity
/ˌɡrændiˈɑːsəti/
n.
2:36:43
自大浮夸，自认为超凡的心理状态
vigilantes
/ˌvɪdʒɪˈlæntiz/
n. pl.
2:37:51
私刑者、自任执法者
moralizing
/ˈmɔːrəlaɪzɪŋ/
n. / adj.
2:37:51
说教、摆道德姿态
fluke
/fluːk/
n.
2:38:54
侥幸、偶然的走运
archetype
/ˈɑːrkitaɪp/
n.
2:41:17
原型、典型范式（荣格心理学核心词）
proclivity
/proʊˈklɪvəti/
n.
2:41:17
倾向、癖好（proclivity to do）
banished
/ˈbænɪʃt/
v.
2:42:20
被逐出、被驱逐
etiquette
/ˈetɪkət/
n.
2:42:20
行规、礼节
perennially
/pəˈreniəli/
adv.
2:43:21
长期地、持续不断地
gratifying
/ˈɡrætɪfaɪɪŋ/
adj.
2:44:30
令人满足的、有成就感的
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